Something to think about

[jcedwards]

I'm glad all seem to agree.

Muslim Cabbies (in Mpls) will not carry fares from the airport if they have alcohol in their bags. This is the type of behavior I am talking about. They must be removed from the position or moderate their zealotry.

I will state again, since Doug has seen fit in his hysterics to move away from civil discourse, yet again.

Everyone that came here had to bend, adapt to our ways or they suffered and/or left. America has a long history of intolerance of difference - it's history, no need to judge. The natural societal force for commonality creates this intolerance.

Doug, you seem to be "offended waiting to happen" based upon your righteous indignation on behalf of every potentially oppressed group that has ever existed.

In fact, your behavior illustrates my point beautifully. I dare say you disagree with the beliefs of many on this Forum. You have the right to express your opinion. We (Bill) have the right not to listen, and in the extreme, to have you removed for your behavior in our 'society' on the ACF. You see your behavior may soon be deemed "anti-social" by our standards and require your removal to maintain the civility we need to function as a clearinghouse for CW related information.

 

[jcedwards]

I am not advocating your removal, but I use this hypothetical to make the point. You would have the choice to 'behave' or leave (or be removed).

This does not seem like too much to ask - people behave or leave. People actively hating the USA should leave. You can disagrees, it is your right. It changes when the behavior crosses the line to action beyond 1st Amendment protection, namely the harm or perceived harm of others.

So my recommendation is to actively try to fit in the society your in. That goes for the Muslims, too.

 

[Ben's Car Wash]

Dude, Your "out there"!

I don't have to conform to injustices. Did Rosa Parks "Conform"? Did abolishist give up on the injustice of Salery because others owned slaves even though the Constitution only counted Black as 5/8ths of a man?

I follow the rules here on ACF. This is the I'd like to say area. Your insighting and elivating bigotry here were other "lurkers" who read this forum are Muslim and find it offensive. I personally find it offensive and will speak out about it and you can not stop me when you begin to post about it! You post about it... I WILL RESPOND TOO YOU... I PROMISE.

 

[Ben's Car Wash]

JC.... what is "our way"? Can you define it? What is "American Culture"? What you say you fear is opposite of mine. You fear the immagreation of large numbers of Muslims that will dominate of interfere with your way (or percieved way of American values). By saying we must restrict religion (a theocratic State) you will create that which you distaine by shear numbers. Islam is that fastest growing Religion in the World! Yes, as Bill pointed out, Europe has problems... Europe has had problem for 1200 years with this! How many year until this turns in the US? 100? 125? 200? When will the population of Muslims become greater than that of Christians in the US? What will gurantee our generations the right to practice "faith" unrestricted by by the majority rules?

Religious freedom and the protection of it, the Constitutional protection of "no religious test", the strict separtion of Church and State and the defence of one another RIGHT TO BELIEVE IN A GOD OF YOUR OWN is all of our duties... even if you can not understand this.... this is how I personally feel... to my deepest core of my being! I guess that is too deep for you to understand?

Again, my family came here in the mid 1600's and bought land from William Penn. I have no writtings from them, but as my forefathers I can imagine they came here to escape the Kings of England and Tyranny of a Head of both Church and State. Penn was one of the eairly American Utopian authors (imprissoned in England twice by the King) who saw religion free of government not government telling us who can come and stay here! As England expelled at that time Puritian Christians, Prodistants and Catholics.

If you take this view that you are espousing to believe... you are moving far away from the principle our our Nation... even at the threat of harm from radicals be they Muslim or Christian! My point is... you do not fear death from drunk drivers, cancer, heart disease or those people who risk your life while practicing bad behaviors that cost society billions of dollars. Why Muslims? Why fear?

 

[Ben's Car Wash]

Read the book, End of Faith by Sam Harris. The answer to all of this is to drop the illusion of religion, gods, and move on to reality and away from mysticism. Christians have the rationality to abandon the inane commands in the Bible, but the Muslims are so primitive that they literally interpret the Koran. The sooner the Christians (Western societies) drop religion and hold these ideas in contempt, the quicker the World can avoid disaster at the hands of Muslims (or any fundamentalists). This is the gist of his book.

http://www.amazon.com/review/produc...34752-9410057?_encoding=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

Midway thru makes my point in the reviews. While ALL organize religion have culpability for killing in the name of God (and yes now radical Islam is a problem), the solution IS NOT to change how the US TREATS RELIGION. phred recognizes this... to a great extent. We all hold personal beliefs. But forcing the US into confrontation over religion which we have fought along side with (Kosovo, Algeria, Irag, Afganistan, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, North Africa, Tripoli) is not productive.

I'm done.... moving on now. Good bye. Read history and get back to me next year, then read the Bible.... mostly Leviticus and deuteromedy (the Pentatuk) to see which laws we Christian should uphold but don't.... then get back with me about getting in a cab with booze!

 

[pitzerwm]

Doug, this is what we all are trying to point out to you.

I don't have to conform to injustices. Did Rosa Parks "Conform"? Did abolishist give up on the injustice of Salery because others owned slaves even though the Constitution only counted Black as 5/8ths of a man?

This is your quote, this thread has nothing to do with someone being oppressed no one is/has made Muslims slaves or 2nd class citizens. We are objecting to them using violence to make us conform to their beliefs.

You either enjoy stirring the pot, or are in dire need of some attention. You totally attack the thread with bogus or irrelevant information accuse people of saying things that they didn't say. Religious freedom has nothing to do with forcing your religion on the people around you. You only have to look at the countries that are controlled by the Muslim religion to see what religious freedom isn't.

Yes, up to a point we will put up with your and Pat Crowe's totally bogus diatribes, until you have absolutely no credibility on any subject. Which I think is pretty much now.

Here is something that you might think about for a minute. You had a childhood handicap which warped you to some degree, the deal is that so did I, probably not as physically traumatic as yours but never the less it warped me. Eventually, I realized that and am usually able to control the behavior that the "handicap" created. When absolutely no one agrees with you, you have to think, "Man, I am either way ahead of my time, or I'm full of crap"

[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] "Let us not look back in anger or forward in fear, but around in awareness." [/FONT]​

[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] James Thurber[/FONT]

 

[jcedwards]

I handed you a shovel and you could not help but dig your own conversational grave. This is not even fair because I think you are actually helpless to control your rage. I am taking advantage of a helpless individual, and for this I am sorry.

 

[Ben's Car Wash]

Far from it!

You can't say they need to conform their religious beliefs here in the US because you don't agree with it! If you do that... you infringe on their civil liberties. What is it that you don't get about that. Bill.... he's not talking about Islam in OTHER NATIONS and their lack of religious freedoms but saying they shouldn't express it HERE IN THE US! No one is saying to you to wear a Burka?

And when you CAN't make your point to win an argument... YOU PERSONALLY ATTACK ME WITH MY HANDICAP! Your a moron! Grow the **** up.

God help us.

 

[Micah Savell]

Far from it!

You can't say they need to conform their religious beliefs here in the US because you don't agree with it! If you do that... you infringe on their civil liberties. What is it that you don't get about that. Bill.... he's not talking about Islam in OTHER NATIONS and their lack of religious freedoms but saying they shouldn't express it HERE IN THE US! No one is saying to you to wear a Burka?

And when you CAN't make your point to win an argument... YOU PERSONALLY ATTACK ME WITH MY HANDICAP! Your a moron! Grow the **** up.

God help us.

Doug, I am sorry I haven't been following the link and DO NOT UNDERSTAND YOUR HANDICAP. Are you mentally challenged?

 

[phred113]

Geez, this has become quite the thread. I was trying to give a book plug and it seems to have degenerated into a 'Muslims do not try to fit in, so they should leave' screed. Doug, bravo for sticking up for the oppressed wherever they may be. I think you should calm down and re-read some of the posts, however. You seem to have missed the points the others are making. It's hard when your in the middle of a rant, but it may be helpful to take a deep breath and think about what is being said. Your emotions see to be getting the best of you.

BTW, I think JC is doing this just to get you kicked off the Forum and you are helping him. If you calm down and re-read, you can probably see that he baited you with an obviously inflammatory statement and you bit hard as most here could predict you would. He is playing you for a fool, IMO. Just be careful.....

 

[Ben's Car Wash]

phred,

I did re-read them... came to the same conclussion that the statements are saying the Muslims are (parapharsing the gist of it) overwhelmingly bad and not socialy conforming to the "Christian standards" that many here view as "American" because they haven't abondoned the old myths of thier religions like the Hebrews or Christians did. Therefore they should be expelled. A view held in 1932-1937 Germany by Christians of Jews (modern Christians).

That's scarry.

But thanks for your warning and insight. The Book you plugged made that point from the reviews I've read. You might ask why I'm so defensive over this because I have very close friends who are Muslims who I have dinned with (and I drank beer in their presence). They treated me very well and continue to (sent my wife and I gifts for the bith of our kids, did free medical care for family members and complete strangers...no questions asked, bought homes for people!). My son goes to school with many Muslim kids.... one girl calls him EVERY NIGHT (in violation of her faith I might add). So yes, I am touchy about this leading to a situation like the PIANIST or SWING BOYS where I have to define who my friends are by their faith because of "populist myths" over hysteria like JC's.

JC I bet never knew that the US Marines wore the Simatar sword? He's affraid to answer my questions.... hits too close to home.

 

[jcedwards]

Now you are getting it. The young lady that calls your son and the fine Muslims that you dine with are examples of what I am talking about. They have chosen to come off the extremes of their faith and adapt to the society they are in. Now, do you understand?

No one is telling them it is unacceptable to forbid you from having a beer in their home, but they could because it is their right (home). If they came into the public square (restaurant) and forbid you from doing this, that would be wrong. So, if you are done reading into my posts what others simply do not read, then maybe you can join in and protect our society from tyranny of the minority.

One more time, I have never focused my argument on Muslims simply because they are Muslims. I have been quite clear about behavior as the issue, not religion or heritage. YOU have injected all the other stuff to justify your rage and rants. Please re-read and find where I focus on anything besides behavior. Taking a sentence out of context would be wrong.

If I told you that Christians praying in their homes is offensive to me, a non-Christian, and you must stop, you would tell me to go pound sand because this is not my right to tell you what to do in your home. You would be right and should defend this with everything you have. It is a completely different argument if you are next to me praying on the bus, however.

 

[pitzerwm]

Doug, as usual you are mis-reading or just refusing to acknowledge reality. The thread and posts have nothing to do with trying to make Muslims or anyone conform to US. It is about them wanting us/Europe to conform to their way of thinking. If you watched some of the European news you would be aware of the problems that they are having with the Muslim population. I had read somewhere that the London cops had areas of London that they were refusing to go into without the military as back up. I asked my English partner about it and he confirmed that the Muslims have an area in London that no one will go there because it is totally not safe for non-Muslims. So say what you want, this whole thread had nothing to do with forcing Muslims to conform to anything. We are uneasy about them trying to make us conform to their way of beliefs. You don't like that, who cares?

 

[jcedwards]

Of course, then there is this......http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120450617910806563.html?mod=opinion_main_commentaries

A little off topic, but still really on topic.

 

[pitzerwm]

Reality from Australia

This is a paraphrasing of what PM John Howard made in a speech: When I was in AU a couple of years ago, on their TV I saw radical Muslims with machine guns (no guns are legal in AU) threating to kill all Australians if they didn't start conforming to their religion. I saw this with my own eyes.

Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on Wednesday to get out of Australia , as the government targeted radicals in a bid to head off potential terror attacks.
Separately, Howard angered some Australian Muslims on Wednesday by saying he supported spy agencies monitoring the nation's mosques. Quote: 'IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT. Take It Or Leave It. I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are
offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Bali , we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians.'
'This culture has been developed over two centuries of struggles, trials and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom.'
'We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society, learn the language!'

'Most Australians believe in God. This is not some Christian, right wing, political push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture.'
'We will accept your beliefs, and will not question why. All we ask is that you accept ours, and live in harmony and peaceful enjoyment with us.' 'This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great Australian freedom, 'THE RIGHT TO LEAVE'.''If you aren't happy here then L! EAVE. We didn't force you to come here. You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted.'

Now, if you would like to read more about it in Snopes: http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/australia.asp

Doug, to be specific, you obviously know some Muslims who are not radical and enjoy the freedoms and benefits of living in the US. Have the live and let live ideas that most of us have. IMO almost all people individually are just fine, its when they are in groups and subjected to group/peer pressure or influences that can lead to the problems.

 

[Ben's Car Wash]

You make my point with examples of unacceptable, irrational behavior in the name of some 'belief'. All of these are unacceptable, anti-social behavior. There is also the matter of degree. The grave side protesters are not behaving acceptably, yet legally, but there are few of 'them' and there are relatively many of 'us'. There are REALLY a lot of Muslims. When a group of that size decides to behave in a certain way, then they become a force difficult to counter. The theory explains the Catholic's anti-birth control and advocation of more little catholics for centuries.

Well behaving, cooperating groups can multiply and prosper along with the rest of society. It is those that behave counter to social norms that must be called out and corrected or removed (not firing squads or eugenics).

I do not care if you choose to believe in something I know to be fiction and similar references to the same fiction (Bible, Koran, Talmud, Torah,....). Your behavior is civil. As you have correctly pointed out, I have an issue with fundamentalists.

When you state "there are REALLY a lot of Muslims", you are casting a net stating that they are all bad or behaving as the example of the protestors in the previous sentance. You futher say "that when a group of that size" saying that the entire group is behaving that way.

You are stating that you have issue with Muslims... fine just state that. I'd rather you be an honest bigot or an atheist in general. But please understand that what you THINK is the "NORM" is far from it because you have little contact with Muslims. Just like not all Christian handle snakes and speak in tongues! Is there a justifable threat to life? Sure to some extent (But if your an Abortion provider in the US a Christian group has you name and address and a bullet with you name on it too). But still Radicals are in every religion (which was the point of the book) but you specifically took huge issue (as did Bill) with Muslims. And that was VERY SLANTED.

Let me look at your next post.

 

[pitzerwm]

Doug, you were totally right, JC did call Muslims an improper name, I missed it and have deleted it, I also needed to delete your response, because you quoted him. He was wrong, I was wrong to miss it. Apparently, he has had some unpleasant dealing with some Muslims here and expressed his anger, it was too much.

That being said, my original posts and responses that around the world there are radical Muslims that want to convert non believers and resort to violence to do it, is factual and the European countries are starting to have big problems and are beginning to attempt to deal with it. To my knowledge we aren't experiencing much of this yet, but in a few years Muslims will constitute 40% of the voters in Europe and their decisions will effect us.

 

[Ben's Car Wash]

Christians in the world seem to have abandoned the strict 'teachings' and tempered them with pragmatic choices on how to live in a civil society. All I ask is that the Muslims do the same or get out.

If we decide that tolerance is what we need, this group will never assimilate. The Irish and Italians were treated horribly, but today they are just part of the group. The cruelty some felt is the natural force of a society needing compliance. You can calm down I am not talking about compliance in the context of China or that sort.

The US is a country founded on reason and natural laws. These have always guided our culture and laws. Irrational, human-hating behavior cannot be allowed as it is truly suicide for everyone. Most of the human-hating, irrational teachings from the Bible/Torah are ignored and the result is a civil society. Instead, the teachings followed by most are the positive, life affirming ones. This is what Muslims need to do, or go somewhere that allows them to kill and control each other.

You can continue to be offended and defend people you do not know, or read this post and think, and understand. I have not advocated killing, sterilizing, or harming Muslims in any way. They should leave if they cannot follow OUR social rules and agree to assimilate in the public square. In their homes they can do as they wish - it is their home after all.

Again here you stated that "Christians abondoned" strict teachings. Yet I would remind you about Waco and David Koresh or Jim Jones, or the Hail Bob suicide group. But your point about Biblical teachings as a whole in Christianity and Jeudiasm is true. But that has some cost and some explanations that you either do not understand or have not explained. Muslims have for the most part been "cultrually isolated" until 1940's and the injection of huge capital from oil revenues and recent events have ppush our cultures and religions into a confrontation. While Anglos and Europeans have had centurys to adjust, Muslims and Islam have only had decades. Same with China and Eastern medican and culture. So the "dynamics" are much deeper than what you are making it out to be. On top of that area of the World has only view Western Culture as either "imperial or colonial" because of the past armies of England, France, Dutch and others.... why should the view the history of the US as any different?

Again JC, I defend FRIENDS, people I know and love. A muslim saved my mother-in-law (I happen to like my mother-in-law) when she was having a heart attack. A muslim sent my me wife the most beautiful gift basket on the birth of my girls (twice). A Muslim did charity, gratis medical care for my father. I know more about them then you do. Does that mean that somewhere someone want to hurt me specifically , no.... the hit the symbol of the US... yes. But too the British burned down Washington in 1814, yet I'm still an Anglican!

 

[Ben's Car Wash]

Bill,

Thank you.... I'm really not trying to stir up trouble or defend horrible crimes of horrible people. NO ONE CAN DEFEND THE ACT OF TERROR, Jew, Christian or Muslim. Yesterday was horrible in Gaza were many kids died over DIRT!

Even Muslims love their kids and want a better life. Still, I see the US moving very close in a propaganda state towards FEAR. Last summer I spent 2 full days in the Holecaust Museum in DC with my kids. To see how it happend in a land where 90% of Germans were "christians" to kill over 6 million people because of fear, or religion. And I see subtle signs everywhere that it can happen again, here.... yes, I get defensive.

 

[pitzerwm]

Doug, I'll retract some of the things I said to you as you were reacting to JC's over the top words, which I had missed. I have nothing against Muslims or anyone unless they are a threat to me or my friends. I can see that when people are willing to blow themselves up to harm us or others, there is something wrong. I think that it is safe to say that the 9-11 people were Muslims. Of course, there is no shortage of ugly history in the name of a religion. To clear up one statement that you had made about we have killed thousands in Iraq, I think that you will find that "they" have killed each other in the thousands. We are just in the middle wishing that we knew whose side to take.

Personally, since most of the 9-11 people were from Saudi Arabia and there is plenty of evidence that they are stabbing us in the back, I think that we should have invaded Saudi Arabia, it would have been a lot easier to "deport" all of them and take over the oil. No one is going to hate us any more than they do now.