I would never ever buy a New automatic. Unless you have no competition and a very high volume location, buying new does not make sense. These machine depreciates too quickly. Also with consignment and closed down washes, buying used is the way to go. I have eight water wizard 1.0 and I have no plans to upgrade. Maybe when the frame is rusted out beyond repair or the WW 3.0 comes out, only then will I consider getting a WW 2.0. I have a 2001 WW 1.0 with 240K washes on it and is still running strong. Two years ago I could find a WW 1.0 for less than $10K easily.
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Used Touchfree make sense?
- Thread starter Waxman
- Start date
robert roman
Bob Roman
Nothing wrong with a bargain, however, I know lots of areas were Goldline and WW 1.0 no longer meet the needs of the market.
Like I said, it has to do with location.
For example, if you want to compete in a demolition derby, an acceptable used car will cost about $1,000 whereas a figure 8 car is double.
It takes about $50,000 to start up an outlaw operation.
A brand new NASCAR Sprint Cup car is about $150,000.
If you want to race at INDY 500, new car costs about $600,000.
It is possible to buy a used INDY car for $300,000 that might qualify but the odds of placing let alone winning would be astronomical.
Like I said, it has to do with location.
For example, if you want to compete in a demolition derby, an acceptable used car will cost about $1,000 whereas a figure 8 car is double.
It takes about $50,000 to start up an outlaw operation.
A brand new NASCAR Sprint Cup car is about $150,000.
If you want to race at INDY 500, new car costs about $600,000.
It is possible to buy a used INDY car for $300,000 that might qualify but the odds of placing let alone winning would be astronomical.
Where did this go
I.B. Washincars
Car Washer Emeritus
That racing analogy makes no sense. A clean car with an old machine is still a clean car. If I buy gas at a brand new 7-11 with high-tech pumps, is my car going to run better than if I buy gas at the old Mom & Pop store with the pumps that were installed in the '80s?
robert roman
Bob Roman
“That racing analogy makes no sense.”
It’s a fair analogy. Each racing series occurs at different venues that have different characteristics or location.
Demo derby at short dirt track might draw 5,000 people at $5 or $10 a head on Friday or Saturday night whereas Indy 500 is gigantic track, humongous crowd, price hundreds of dollars.
“A clean car with an old machine is still a clean car.”
True but the only way to get a clean car with “old” touch-less is use a ton of chemical or rip the dirt off with acid. Also, people want a lot more than just clean. They also want shiny, protection and dry, no spots.
“If I buy gas at a brand new 7-11 with high-tech pumps, is my car going to run better than if I buy gas at the old Mom & Pop store with the pumps that were installed in the '80s?
Cars run better and longer because modern gasoline contains additives to enhance combustion to improve fuel economy as well as keep fuel delivery system clean.
High-tech pumps provide more convenience, image and value than mom & pop.
Electronic head has computer to control pump, POS and displays (including 30-second infomercials) and communicates with in-store sales system allowing for pay-at-pump. High-tech also means multiple fuel grades, two sets of nozzles and submersible pumps to eliminate cavitation.
So, it takes 5 to 7 minutes to fill-up at mom and pop and only 3 minutes at 7-11.
It’s a fair analogy. Each racing series occurs at different venues that have different characteristics or location.
Demo derby at short dirt track might draw 5,000 people at $5 or $10 a head on Friday or Saturday night whereas Indy 500 is gigantic track, humongous crowd, price hundreds of dollars.
“A clean car with an old machine is still a clean car.”
True but the only way to get a clean car with “old” touch-less is use a ton of chemical or rip the dirt off with acid. Also, people want a lot more than just clean. They also want shiny, protection and dry, no spots.
“If I buy gas at a brand new 7-11 with high-tech pumps, is my car going to run better than if I buy gas at the old Mom & Pop store with the pumps that were installed in the '80s?
Cars run better and longer because modern gasoline contains additives to enhance combustion to improve fuel economy as well as keep fuel delivery system clean.
High-tech pumps provide more convenience, image and value than mom & pop.
Electronic head has computer to control pump, POS and displays (including 30-second infomercials) and communicates with in-store sales system allowing for pay-at-pump. High-tech also means multiple fuel grades, two sets of nozzles and submersible pumps to eliminate cavitation.
So, it takes 5 to 7 minutes to fill-up at mom and pop and only 3 minutes at 7-11.
But if we stay on task with car washes.... The real problem is that newer machines are just more proprietary, more expensive to repair, and have more parts bolted on to add pizzazz. There are no technology gains to speak of since the 90's. Maybe some incremental gains that save a gallon here, or are a little faster there; but big deal. Don't get me wrong, incremental gains are worth something - but wheres the ROI on a $120,000.00 and an incremental gain that made you $5000 back in a year? Add all this up and mix it with the fact that the many manufacturers over-complicate and over-engineer newer machines to a ridiculous level, and you won't make the numbers work out. Besides that, the secondary market in car washes is flooded with underused equipment due to the shoddy distributors and know-nothing land brokers overselling every corner out there as a good car wash site. A new machine makes pretty good sense if you have a serious problem (bankrupt manufacturer for example), but if you can get parts and figure out how to keep it running and looking good to the customer, you probably aren't going to get very far with brand new stuff.
I know that people like disclosure, so I might add that I sell car wash stuff... And still believe this.
I know that people like disclosure, so I might add that I sell car wash stuff... And still believe this.
I.B. Washincars
Car Washer Emeritus
Since neither 7-11 or Mom and Pop refine their own gasoline it may very well be the exact same.
Where do you get that? There is one high-tech station in my area that I stopped going to because it takes about twice as long to fill my truck as it does at the older Marathon (only actual service station left in our town) with pumps that look to be 20 years old. Both places have Pay at Pump, which I would think that's all that most of the motoring public wants.
Ok guys, I'll leave this alone and you can get back to the discussion at hand. Besides, I gotta go take the money out of my autos that were built in 1998.
rph9168
Carwashguy
This discussion is a little like whether it is better to buy a used car or a new one. A good used car with low mileage can save a lot of money up front as long as it does not have many mechanical issues. Most nowadays they are usually sold as is so any repairs come out of your pocket. A new car depreciates almost as you are driving off the lot but comes with warranty should you have problems during the warranty period. Even a good used automatic is going to have some problems associated with it. In some cases damage was done when it was taken out. In other cases some parts may be missing or there were some operational issues before it was removed. How costly the repairs might be depends of course on what parts are needed for the repair and it you can do most or all of the repair work yourself. With a new automatic there are not installation issues and it comes with a warranty on the machine and various parts. While the initial cost is higher there are no additional surprises for at least the warranty period. If you are patient and find a unit you can live with and are handy and can do most or all of the repair work used can be a real sound choice. As some have already stated I would try to stick with a brand that you know you can get parts for without going through any great hassle or paying a premium for them. If you do not want to spend the time necessary to be work out the bugs and to get the equipment functioning properly a new machine might be a better choice. In today's market you can dicker with a manufacturer or distributor and get the price down or have them throw in a few extras. I think in either case take your time with the decision because you are going to have to live with it for a long time.
robert roman
Bob Roman
“….newer machines are just more proprietary, more expensive to repair, and have more parts bolted on to add pizzazz.”
More propriety exists because there are far fewer OEM’s today. More expensive to repair (and buy) because cost to manufacture is higher as is labor cost to wash car.
For example, labor can be substituted for in-bay (12 CPH) at cost of about $150,000 to $200,000. Is it coincidence price of in-bay has roughly same range?
More parts bolted on because, like exterior express, additional profit centers are needed to offset increasing cost to own and operate.
“wheres the ROI on a $120,000.00”
ROI comes from matching development cost with the market potential of the site location and generating sufficient sales.
For example, average cost of capital for wash at gas site is $72,000 (fixed cost). If average price is $8.00 and variable unit cost $2.40, break-even is 12,800 cars. At $10, its 9,500 and $12 is 7,500.
Also new provides depreciation tax shield. So, cycle is minor overhaul at 5-years and re-load bay and new skin package for building at between 8 and 10 years.
No magic here, just fundamentals.
“…..secondary market….is flooded with underused equipment due to the shoddy distributors and know-nothing land brokers overselling every corner out there as a good car wash site.”
Likewise, there was a gullible person(s) who bought into this distributor and/or broker’s opinion of good site.
Is used a good idea? Sure it is if the site location can’t generate sufficient gross sales (volume and price).
Ten years ago, 75,000 gallons of gas per month was enough to justify a wash. Today, many retailers will not develop a site for which it cannot project at least 175,000 gallons.
People eat sour grapes because they chose them.
More propriety exists because there are far fewer OEM’s today. More expensive to repair (and buy) because cost to manufacture is higher as is labor cost to wash car.
For example, labor can be substituted for in-bay (12 CPH) at cost of about $150,000 to $200,000. Is it coincidence price of in-bay has roughly same range?
More parts bolted on because, like exterior express, additional profit centers are needed to offset increasing cost to own and operate.
“wheres the ROI on a $120,000.00”
ROI comes from matching development cost with the market potential of the site location and generating sufficient sales.
For example, average cost of capital for wash at gas site is $72,000 (fixed cost). If average price is $8.00 and variable unit cost $2.40, break-even is 12,800 cars. At $10, its 9,500 and $12 is 7,500.
Also new provides depreciation tax shield. So, cycle is minor overhaul at 5-years and re-load bay and new skin package for building at between 8 and 10 years.
No magic here, just fundamentals.
“…..secondary market….is flooded with underused equipment due to the shoddy distributors and know-nothing land brokers overselling every corner out there as a good car wash site.”
Likewise, there was a gullible person(s) who bought into this distributor and/or broker’s opinion of good site.
Is used a good idea? Sure it is if the site location can’t generate sufficient gross sales (volume and price).
Ten years ago, 75,000 gallons of gas per month was enough to justify a wash. Today, many retailers will not develop a site for which it cannot project at least 175,000 gallons.
People eat sour grapes because they chose them.
robert roman
Bob Roman
Yeah, I'll leave it alone after I needle the consultant.
“Where do you get that? There is one high-tech station in my area that I stopped going to because it takes about twice as long to fill my truck as it does at the older Marathon….”
Gas pump volume/speed is regulated. So, maybe something is wrong with CPU, pump or storage tank is low.
I was comparing to 80’s. Yes, most mom and pop “today” can be as fast as 7-11.
However, to get there, mom and pop needed to upgrade to compliant shortage tanks, well monitors, Stage II ready and PCI compliance.
“Where do you get that? There is one high-tech station in my area that I stopped going to because it takes about twice as long to fill my truck as it does at the older Marathon….”
Gas pump volume/speed is regulated. So, maybe something is wrong with CPU, pump or storage tank is low.
I was comparing to 80’s. Yes, most mom and pop “today” can be as fast as 7-11.
However, to get there, mom and pop needed to upgrade to compliant shortage tanks, well monitors, Stage II ready and PCI compliance.
I.B. Washincars
Car Washer Emeritus
I wasn't needling you. I was questioning your analogies that don't make sense to me. And frankly, that time differential between old and new pumps sounds like you just made it up.
robert roman
Bob Roman
ro·bot
/ˈrōˌbät/
noun
1.
a machine capable of carrying out a complex series of actions automatically, especially one programmable by a computer.
Which means all modern iba's are robots. They are machines that perform a series of actions automatically and are controlled by a computer. This is the very definition of a robot. They even interact with the customer through the autocashier. We tend to forget that we have been using robots to wash cars for several decades now. As my son studies robotics in school I find we have a lot more to talk about since all the mechanics and most of the programming thought is the same as I use in the car wash industry.
/ˈrōˌbät/
noun
1.
a machine capable of carrying out a complex series of actions automatically, especially one programmable by a computer.
Which means all modern iba's are robots. They are machines that perform a series of actions automatically and are controlled by a computer. This is the very definition of a robot. They even interact with the customer through the autocashier. We tend to forget that we have been using robots to wash cars for several decades now. As my son studies robotics in school I find we have a lot more to talk about since all the mechanics and most of the programming thought is the same as I use in the car wash industry.
I.B. Washincars
Car Washer Emeritus
I didn't see anything spectacular, other than the light show. I'm sure that could be duplicated on about any machine. Did I miss something? It looks to be a cross between a gantry machine and a Belanger Vector.
robert roman
Bob Roman
“I'm sure that could be duplicated on about any machine. Did I miss something? It looks to be a cross between a gantry machine and a Belanger Vector.”
Reason it looks like this way because it’s a true robot – it works on 6-axis as Petit explained to me. Other in-bays do not.
Some years ago I believe I posted a link to a You-Tube video that showed how this robot worked in a client’s conveyor operation in WV. It cleaned the entire car within a four foot length.
I got to stop by this site last month on my way to Pa. Very busy, place has to be washing over 100,000 cars a year.
I haven’t seen any of these machines in Florida but I do have seen quote for a dual set up. Like premium machines, it’s not inexpensive.
Add standing dryer should produce legit 20 cars an hour - clean, shine, protect like tunnel.
You would have to spend $190 K to get 20 CPH from a roll-over.
Reason it looks like this way because it’s a true robot – it works on 6-axis as Petit explained to me. Other in-bays do not.
Some years ago I believe I posted a link to a You-Tube video that showed how this robot worked in a client’s conveyor operation in WV. It cleaned the entire car within a four foot length.
I got to stop by this site last month on my way to Pa. Very busy, place has to be washing over 100,000 cars a year.
I haven’t seen any of these machines in Florida but I do have seen quote for a dual set up. Like premium machines, it’s not inexpensive.
Add standing dryer should produce legit 20 cars an hour - clean, shine, protect like tunnel.
You would have to spend $190 K to get 20 CPH from a roll-over.
MEP001
Well-known member
The Belanger Freestyler is $75k and can do a good wash in under three minutes.
You know car wash numbers better than you know racing. WoO 410 cubic inch motor can push $45k. Competitive Nascar teams today have budgets of at least 15 million.
That being said (I don't like saying this)...you are right, he would be behind before the green flag every dropped. I think I just threw up in my mouth a little.
