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Starting from Scratch..... What Self Serve Bay Lighting would you choose and Why ?
- Thread starter softsuds
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DiamondWash
Well-known member
Candlelight with scent. They have a awesome selection and deals at bed bath and beyond on scented candles.
MEP001
Well-known member
I'd still go with fluorescent if I were purchasing and installing lights. LEDs are still too expensive to just buy outright, but they're finally becoming comparable to good fluorescents and HID output per watt. Here's an example:
http://www.1000bulbs.com/product/100110/PLT-101003.html
It has the same lumens per watt as the fluorescent it replaces, unfortunately because it's much lower wattage it's also much less light output. Of course that means if you want your bays well-lit, you need more bulbs/fixtures.
I've been putting two of these in place of 250W Scottsdale metal halides:
http://lightingfixtures.lamarlighting.com/item/parking-garage-lighting/dvw-series-fluorescent-lights/dvw-4-32-e-8-u-sa?&plpver=1001&origin=keyword&by=prod&filter=0
The 128W version lights the bay as well as the original 320W metal halides did, presumably because all the light is cast down where it's needed.
Your utility company might subsidize most of the cost of an LED install, which would totally make it worth doing.
I've looked at induction lighting quite a bit - if there was a fixture designed for lighting a bay properly I'd give them a try. At 150 lumens per watt, it's by far the most energy efficient type that gives off a useable, white light.
http://www.1000bulbs.com/product/100110/PLT-101003.html
It has the same lumens per watt as the fluorescent it replaces, unfortunately because it's much lower wattage it's also much less light output. Of course that means if you want your bays well-lit, you need more bulbs/fixtures.
I've been putting two of these in place of 250W Scottsdale metal halides:
http://lightingfixtures.lamarlighting.com/item/parking-garage-lighting/dvw-series-fluorescent-lights/dvw-4-32-e-8-u-sa?&plpver=1001&origin=keyword&by=prod&filter=0
The 128W version lights the bay as well as the original 320W metal halides did, presumably because all the light is cast down where it's needed.
Your utility company might subsidize most of the cost of an LED install, which would totally make it worth doing.
I've looked at induction lighting quite a bit - if there was a fixture designed for lighting a bay properly I'd give them a try. At 150 lumens per watt, it's by far the most energy efficient type that gives off a useable, white light.
MEP001
Well-known member
Might work well if you plan to bathe in a bay with your wife...
If money is no object I’d go with LED lighting. There are a number of washes here that have installed LED lights and they look great, lots light, it’s the same fixture you’d see in a gas station canopy. Something on these lines http://www.vividleds.us/pages/gas-station-led-lights.html
We have at a couple of washes 4 tube 8’ T-5HO 54 watt per bulb. They are bright and give a good show in the bays. Something like these http://www.warehouse-lighting.com/w...t-8-miro-4-reflector-wet-listed-120-volt.aspx
Check with your utility they might have a program to get energy efficient lights installed at little or no cost to you. I’d never go back to the Scottsdale 320 watt metal halide again.
We have at a couple of washes 4 tube 8’ T-5HO 54 watt per bulb. They are bright and give a good show in the bays. Something like these http://www.warehouse-lighting.com/w...t-8-miro-4-reflector-wet-listed-120-volt.aspx
Check with your utility they might have a program to get energy efficient lights installed at little or no cost to you. I’d never go back to the Scottsdale 320 watt metal halide again.
This works very good.
http://www.kleen-ritecorp.com/p-326...ent-light-120277v-wstainless-steel-clips.aspx
http://www.kleen-ritecorp.com/p-326...ent-light-120277v-wstainless-steel-clips.aspx
Eric H
Well-known member
I have 2 washes with LEDs (that i got with huge rebates) and one wash that I converted the 250w MH to 400w CFL (no rebates available for this wash). The LEDs look great all the time, instant on and all fixtures are the same color temperature. The 400w CFLs are also the same color temperature (5000k) but take a while to get to full brightness during cold weather.
If you could get LED fixtures for a good price They are definitely the way to go because they offer low operating cost and zero maintenance (so far).
Fluorescent are cheap to buy and operate, but are not instant on in some cases and have more maintenance than the LED.
Metal Halide, while once the "go to" light for this industry, has become too expensive to operate and maintain. Combine that with the inconsistencies with the color temperature of the bulbs that I was experiencing puts them out of the running.
If you could get LED fixtures for a good price They are definitely the way to go because they offer low operating cost and zero maintenance (so far).
Fluorescent are cheap to buy and operate, but are not instant on in some cases and have more maintenance than the LED.
Metal Halide, while once the "go to" light for this industry, has become too expensive to operate and maintain. Combine that with the inconsistencies with the color temperature of the bulbs that I was experiencing puts them out of the running.
This is still too much of an emotional decision on this board. Did the payback. LEDs are way to go with a 3 year payback for me from a replacement perspective, putting in new there is no doubt, 40%ish or less of electric for the same lumen output depending on which manufacturer you go with. Do the math.
Earl Weiss
Well-known member
Math is easy but not simple. Rates, Rebates and subsidies make a huge difference. In Chicagoland rebates and subsidie=$0.00
An example with simplified numbers. Rate = .10 / KWH 320W Scottsdale Vs Similar LED available from TSS which is about 150W.
Purchase Price ----Scotsdale $300. LED $500.00 Difference $200.00 Savings 1.7 cents per hour. Average daily darkness 12 hours and lit for that time saves 20.4 cents a day x 365 days = $74.46 / year or 2.68 years for the payback on a new Purchase choice, but if the choice is replacement you are spending $500.00 you did not need to spend so the payback is 6.7 years.
None of this factors time value or cost of $ Which extends the payback nor perhaps Bulb / Ballast replacement. which shortens it.
If you do not burn all lights all night the payback time increases. I close the gas station at 9:00 pm, open at 5:00 pm so I figured average burn at 3 hours or 24% fof a 24 hour operation. This quadsrupled the replacement ROI time so it was not worth it.
Yes, it depends on the time you burn them and rebates certainly help. Also if you look at the burning rate of scottsdales 320 (which is what I replaced) you will find that it burns about 460W with bulb and ballast and that degradates over time from a lumens and wattage perspective. So your really looking at (and here I am a carwash open 24/7) about $0.31 a day or $113 which is about a year and half. That doesn't even take into consideration the bulb replacement (around $40 per) or ballast replacement (about $100 per) in the 5 or 6 years I only planned on having them. If you do a spreadsheet for maintenance costs (as I did) on the scottsdales it actually figured down to less than 1.5 year payback (for my application with rebates = 1% of cost) and then I actually save money, provide nicer lighting, with less maintenance. I was trying to take into consideration other applications and issues and pad my payback a bit (all numbers here are rough). Can't seem to insert a file but here are numbers I used (all information found on websites of manufacturers or tried to verify through their customer support).
Solution Initial Cost # Watts Solution Lumens Ongoing yearly Costs 12 hour burn kWh
Metal Halide 0 360W 461 x 2 18-22K 150 11.064
T5 lights 400 281 x 2 19-24k 40 6.744
LED 500 147 x 2 25-28k 3.528
G&G Tube 1400 200 20k 2.4
Solution Initial Cost # Watts Solution Lumens Ongoing yearly Costs 12 hour burn kWh
Metal Halide 0 360W 461 x 2 18-22K 150 11.064
T5 lights 400 281 x 2 19-24k 40 6.744
LED 500 147 x 2 25-28k 3.528
G&G Tube 1400 200 20k 2.4
MEP001
Well-known member
Something you're probably not figuring in is light output. LEDs are not more efficient than fluorescent or HID. They're just lower wattage. I want the bays well-lit, and replacing 320 watt metal halide with 100 watt LEDs won't make that happen. Yes, if the metal halides are old and weak it's probably going to look better with new LEDs, but it will never be as bright as new HIDs.
MEP001
Well-known member
I was typing that as you were posting your data - it seems we've both done the same math. FWIW, I've been replacing the Scottsdales with 4-bulb T8 fixtures (116 watts each based on .97A at 120V) and at a third the cost per fixture and 36,000 hour bulb life I'm way ahead of LEDs.
What's the cost of a replacement bulb and ballast in those?
MEP - I agree for a "replacement" T8s are very attractive and the cost is right but eventually they will go the way of MH and you still deal with ongoing maintenance costs which no one ever figures in. The LEDs I went with have a 5 year warranty and a 60k to 100k life expectancy. If you factor that in to the overall cost model "NEW INSTALLATION" like we are speaking here, it is pretty much a no brainer. Also if you look at my numbers you will see Lumens is part of the equation, which is light output.
MEP001
Well-known member
Going by the ratings of the parts (36,000 hours for bulbs, 100,000 for the ballasts) I'm still way ahead of LEDs. At the 100,000 hour mark of your LEDs when you may be spending another $600 per fixture to replace, I'll have spent $45 in bulbs/ballasts.
Earl Weiss
Well-known member
MEP, if you look at specs you are 100% correct. But I have to say with 150W LED fixtures from TSS virtualy side by side with 320 W Scottdsdales (Replaced some old 400W MH) I have to say the LED's are whiter and brighter.
Specs say I'm wrong. I know. It's kind of like "What are you going to believe, what I say or what your own eyes see?"
I have also seen the same with redone gas station canopies. Can't explain it but there it is.
Whale of a Wash
5 Washes 36Bays 2Vectors
I just redid the walls in my auto and replaced the lights with the 4' T8's from kleen rite somewhere around $130 i think, but was amazed at the evenly spread light. For part of the year i only use the lights at night, so i have a savings with that. In the auto i like the new t8s as they are almost instant on. A big problem with lights in the auto is soap drift and wax and dirt, and i also wanted a light that is easy to throw away if they get too scummy looking, and not cost a fortune. LED's and every other light has lower output over time, the led's in my rowe for the buckets get dimmer, and need replacing every 2- 3 years. Unless you get a big energy rebate- I would go with T8's. Yes i do like LED's. Every bulb in my house is from Costco(3 for $19). But how long will chinese LED's work--still testing this out.
MEP001
Well-known member
I'm assuming it's because all the light from the LEDs is projected straight down at the ground, where the Scottsdales throw the light in a roughly 270° sphere. I'm seeing the same thing from the fluorescents, that most of the light is cast down.
