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Newbie Question Low Pressure

D

davedyer79

New member
I have recently purchased the car wash attached to my Quick Lube. It is 20 years old with all original equipment, including back flow valves and solenoids. I am slowly learning and wanting to change a few things out. I currently use Kip solenoids with Flo-Jet 5100 air pumps for low pressure. The plumbing for the low pressure runs out of the mechanical room and above each bay into a set of backflow valves for the tire cleaner and presoak, backflow valve for air, and high pressure attachments. The 1/4 lines for each chemical and air is ran to each of the 4 bays on top of the building. Why cant this setup be used in the room instead of on the roof. That would eliminate 3 lines running on top of the building. I am also wanting to upgrade the Flo-Jet to the Model G57 pump. The Kip solenoids are constantly getting trash in them and leaking the product to the bay. I can take the orfice and plunger out and a piece of trash falls out. I was thinking about switching to the Dema solenoids with blocks but I had a guy tell me they are crap and stay with the Kips. Sorry for such a long post, and thanks.
 
Install a fine mesh filter in the solution tank or in the supply lines to the pumps. That will resolve your solenoid clogs.

The 1/4" lines are connected above the bays to decrease "changeover" time. If you inject low pressure solutions in the equipment room, delivery time to the bay will be excessive...30 to 45 seconds to the outside bays(?)

G57's are indeed fine pumps...But what's wrong with the currently installed 5100s?
 
The 5100's are always going bad and Kleen Rite advised this as a replacement. I thought I might run it a little higher PSI with this pump as well. The current 5100's are running about 20psi with 5-6 psi on air and the changeover of product is about 20-30 seconds. I thought if I run 50-60 psi on the new pumps it might deliver faster to the bay without me getting on the roof to check the check valves. Where do I get the fine mesh.
 
I use the "mushroom" strainer from Hypro. They push on over the outlet fittings of my solution tanks. There are in-line filters and screw-on filters, too. Just make sure the materials are compatible with your solutions...the clear plastic bowls tend to crack with some chemicals.
KR and Dultmeier are sources but I got mine from here: (Page 133)
http://www.hpws.com/2012catalog/2096580489/index.html

G57 is a good choice. But, if you're having problems with the 5100, you might invest in a desiccant air filter for your air compressor. Air pumps hate moist air...and guess where your compressor's intake is located?

Good idea with the bump in pressure...40 to 50 psi pump and 20 to 25 psi air-assist will definitely improve delivery time to the bays. Clean liquids and quality check valves will make for happier days.
 
You'll definitely have better luck with the G57. I run them like yours is set up with them pressurized and "dead-headed" against the solenoids, and they last an average of five years like that. Use the Viton for any harsh chemical like tire cleaner or wax. (I went with all-Viton so I don't have to keep two different spares)

The reason there are separate lines to the bays is so the changeover time won't be too long. It can take a full minute for a 50-foot line to clear, and customers won't like waiting that long. They'll think it's not working.
 
Hey thanks. I have the mushroom style screens as well on my outlet of the product tanks but I guess I will try a smaller micron filter and maybe put a strainer on my presoak, tire cleaner and foam brush as well. Maybe this will help the small products that get through the screen settle in the bottom of the strainer. I have it on the list to put and air/water separator on my air compressor when I decide to upgrade the FloJets and I will adjust the air/water pressures to the PSI you listed. I also purchased 4 Viton G57 pumps as well so not to have 2 backups. I am replacing everything up top, including all the check valves, 1/4 lines and main high pressure hose. I wanted to do this because some of the check valves have been up there for over 20 years and I am getting weird backflow issues that have to be failed check valves. What about the Kip solenoids compared to the DEMA. The current solenoids are not on blocks, they are just attached to the wall behind the product tanks. Most of them are rusted and almost impossible to disassemble to rebuild/repair. They have 2 wires "molded" to them that go into spade connectors connected to terminal blocks, which are also rusty and falling apart. I have fixed most the "bay to room" issues by correcting bad wiring. It had t-taps that were bad and 60% of the spade connectors were not making contact due to the rust. I am just tired of looking and tracing down bad connections with the terminal blocks and wanting to replace all the air and product solenoids. Thank you all very much for the help. I am in rural Oklahoma where there is not a lot of help and the company's that do want $75-$100/hour including drive time (3 hours here and 3 hours back) just to answer questions about brands and settings!!!
 
If I were rehabbing a 20 year old wash I would absolutely replace all the check valves. If the solenoids were as bad as you describe I would replace them all, wouldnt waste a minute thinking about it. Kip vs dema is a Chevy vs Ford question IMO.
FYI I run my low pressure functions on flojet G57s between 50 and 60 psi because I want faster delivery of more soap.

Why are you getting crud in your lines, I mean where is it coming from? The strainers are good, but thats treating a symptom, figure out where the crud is coming from and stop it. I'm guessing you have galvanized fittings, if so that is likely your problem... get rid of them!
 
I have some Dema's that are probably 25-30 years old and still work. I've been changing the Dema's out for the Stainless Kips with spade connectors. They will be much easier to change out if and when. FYI...If you use the Kips, Just make sure you use 3/16" spade connectors. They fit perfectly and are tight. 1/4" connectors are way too loose.
 
We clean out our chemical tanks about every 6 month so they don’t build up a lot scum or debris. On the discharge of all of our chemical tanks we use a 80 mesh strainer, http://www.kleen-ritecorp.com/p-111-smc-clearbowl-inline-strainer-12-f-x-f-80-mesh.aspx This stops debris from getting into the solenoid valves.

If your check valves are 20 years old they are long overdue to be changed. I’d go with a stainless steel check valve like this one http://www.kleen-ritecorp.com/p-1764-fluid-controls-check-valve-14-viton-ss-hp.aspx Before I replaced any Flo-Jet pumps I’d make sure the check valves are holding back any back pressure. One good blast from a leaking check valve will destroy a Flo-Jet pump, so replace any leaking or questionable check valves before you install a new Flo-Jet pump.

We only use the Flo-Jet G57 pump on the Foam brush system now. We went to Procon pumps on all the other low pressure systems about 18 years ago. In the 18 years I’ve replaced one Procon pump and that was just recently.
I think I’d keep the Kip solenoid valves, they are better than the Dema solenoids. Clean off any rust or corrosion from the terminals so they will make a good connection.

It basically sounds like this wash has been neglected for some time and it’s going to take a lot of TLC to get it back into a good working order.
 
@PaulLovesJamie-- Our water treatment plant is not in the best shape either. You can take a cup of city water and let it sit all night and find crud in the bottom of your glass. It is horrible. Sand, trash and everything else!!! I have already assembled the delivery system that will go above the bays, new brass T's, high pressure fittings, low pressure fittings, check valves, etc.... I had the idea of putting that in the pump room but now after talking to all you I will put it on top where it is now. I figured if I was going through that much trouble why not replace/repair the entire low pressure delivery system. That is why I was asking about the solenoids. Maybe I just might stick with the Kip solenoids with blocks, like possibly this-https://www.kleen-ritecorp.com/p-1969-kip-manifold-block-non-metering-4-outlets.aspx What do metering and non-metering mean? I have little needle valves on the outlet side of the solenoids now but none of them work. They are all frozen. So far I haven't seen any galvanized pieces yet, all brass. I will be sure to run the G57's at that setting, you are one of many that has advised those settings.

@ 2Biz Thanks for the heads up on the spade connectors. Any reason on the switch from Dema to Kip?
 
@ Randy-- Yes sir, the chemical tanks were DIRTY, to say the least. I thought maybe something was alive when I cleaned them out. They are very shiny now. Even emptied them and polished the stainless, probably overkill but why not!!! Those are the exact check valves that I bought. I have spent about $650 now on all the brass to go above the bay and have them put together. I have all new 1/4 lines and high pressure line purchased. I just thought why not replace/repair all the way to the tank while I am at it!! THANK YOU for the link on the strainer, just got off the phone for 3 of the strainers. Procon pumps, are they electrical?? I am looking at the in the Kleen Rite book now. I am guessing you don't use air with them?? How does the product (aerate)?? Clamp style, flange style?? How do adjust the pressure?? This is what my RO system runs on and the previous owner says he hasn't touched it in 20 years!!!! It wasn't neglected per say. The gentleman I purchased it from was older (80's) and just liked to tinker!! He did not like to upgrade any, just keep it going and patch it up. 50% of the time you called for a certain product it did not work and he would just beat on something and it would work and he would call that fixed. I don't have time to guess!! Since I have fixed the bugs in the wiring MOST the time things go right the business has tripled and I want to do the best for my customers. I have increased the high pressure to the bay to 1500 psi and changed the soap blend to give A LOT of soap, changed the foam brush to produce very thick soap, etc.... People seem to like it so I want to keep them coming without me having to go beat on a solenoid every 20 minutes!!!!

Thank you very much for all the reply's!!! I really appreciate all the help.
 
I also prefer Kip over Dema. The Dema 401P is all brass, which corrodes from strong chemicals and erodes from liquid flow. The Kip is all stainless and isn't affected by either. The Kips are also easier to wire up with the spade connectors, and they're cheaper.
 
davedyer79 said:
@.......... What do metering and non-metering mean? I have little needle valves on the outlet side of the solenoids now but none of them work. They are all frozen
Click to expand...

The metering ones allow you to fine tune the flow. The way I do this is I open the meter valves all the way then I set my air pressure and product pressure to what works for the bay furtherest from the equipment room. Mine are all in a line and not three on one side and three on the other type set up. In my set up bay one is very close to the equip room and bay six is far away. So then I adjust just using wide open metering to what works well for that bay six. Bay 5 I may dial down the air metering or product metering until it is just right then move to bay 4 then 3 etc. That way you should not be fooling with the main pressure for air or product since those are fixed for all bays.....metering lets you dial in what works for each bay. If you only have two bays ... one on each side of the equip room you would not have to concern yourself with using metered blocks. Anyway hope that helps.
 
Gotcha!! I have 2 bays on each side of my mechanical room. i guess I will use metering valves. Just more $ right!! Thanks for the help!!
 
davedyer79 said:
@ 2Biz Thanks for the heads up on the spade connectors. Any reason on the switch from Dema to Kip?
Click to expand...

Mep explained the difference between the Kip Stainless and the Dema's pretty well. I also like the smaller footprint of the Kips. Easier to work with. Keep in mind, the Kip Manifold type is Brass, not stainless. Also the Manifold type I believe uses 1/4" spades. The Kip Stainless (Single Solenoid) uses 3/16" spades. What ever type you settle with, just make sure you use the right connector. May make a difference down the road. I just replaced all my Soap and Wax solenoids with the Kip Stainless Metering Solenoids. I wished I would have bought the standard solenoids and used needle valves. The standard needle valves is easier to adjust by hand and you have to use a screw driver with the Metering Solenoids.
 
Hey thanks all for the help!! I ordered the Kip stainless solenoids with brass manifolds, 1/4 fittings, product and air regulator with 2 gauges today. i am going to put them together tomorrow and install them in the evening for my pre-soak. I'm starting there and will do the tire cleaner next and finish with the foam brush. I am doing it in steps so maybe I will get better as i go. I will be sure to set the FloJet G57 at the setting everyone recommended. i really appreciate everyone's help!!!
 
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