Newbie Here, with pre-mix question

[Creole]

Hello all ! My wife and I have been Lurking on this forum for a bit and it has been very helpful so far. We are not only new to the forum, but soon to be new to us car wash owners.

We are in the final stages of purchasing the wash just a block from our house with 4 self service bays, one of which is a truck/ rv bay and a 5th spot with a lift for cleaning underneath.

Now to the setup. In going over the operation with the current owner and chemical mixes, suffice it to say we are a bit confused.
His current set up for hp soap is as follows:

5 gallon tub on the floor, with pre-mix of simonize hp soap at 6/1 with water, the hydro minder in the final mix tank on the pump stand has an orange orifice tip in it which I believe is about 64:1. He believes this gives him a mix ratio of 390:1 which is more than the 600-900 recommended by simonize. ( It doesn't seem to be quite enough show but does a decent job).

MY QUESTION IS:
Must we pre-mix at all? The kleen-rite folks are suggesting the simonize hp soap to be used with either a pink or purple tip, causing me to wonder if we can change orifice tips and put the foot valve hose in the concentrate bucket?

The current owner thinks it's too concentrated to pull up to the hydrominder, and maybe he's already been through this, and I hate to keep asking him about his mixes. Everything is set up this way with each of his chemicals and our personal feeling is there could be more concentration across the board for everything at the wand in the bay. This is one thing we would like to address first when we take possession of the wash soon.

Thanks for any help and or comments! We look forward to using this forum to learn and share!

Creole

 

[MEP001]

There are dual-tip systems for a Hydrominder. I make them myself with a tee, a couple fittings and the internally threaded hose fittings. One hose pulls out of the already mixed vat and the other draws from the concentrate.

 

[Creole]

MEP,
Thanks for the reply. However, I'm a bit confused. His setup has a 4 station pump stand with 3 vats on top of the pumps. Water, wax, and soap. As the float falls in the soap vat, the water valve is opened and the hydrominder draws his premix from the container on the floor into the vat with the water mixing it again through his orange orifice tip.

If you use a dual tipped hydrominder in the upper vat, is it pulling from the container on the floor as well as the upper vat?

Thanks again.

 

[MEP001]

Yes, where there is currently one orifice and hose leading to the container on the floor, there would be two with one of them drawing from the same vat it's filling. The purpose is to dilute the chemical while it's filling the tank.

 

[Ghetto Wash]

I've always called it a "Turtle Block"

Looks like Turtle Wax has a patent on it.

I make my own out of 1/4" sch80 PVC.

 

[Creole]

Awesome!! so this allows drawing straight from the concentrate bucket, into the mix tank. How do you determine orifice sizes? If you want to use the suggested orifice of pink (240:1) for the concentrate, then the other one drawing from the vat would need to be fairly large like black (1:5)?

Thanks!

 

[Earl Weiss]

Not familiar with your set up but the first question would be does the HP Soap draw ONLY from the soap tank? My sysem and many others draws from the Water / Rinse tank and a solenoid also opens for the HP tank when HP is called for allowing the HP soap to be drawn into the water supply to the pump along with the fresh water. If this is your setup , this dilutes the HP soap more than what is in the tank. Please check this out.

Now, with all due respect to the advice given, if the prior owner is correct and the solution doesn't draw well for whatever reason, pre dilution is needed. I have this issue at one of 4 places. I cannot use ultra lean tips. It has to do with city water pressure fluctuations. You may have the same issue and the easy solution is pre dilution. Adding a surge tank and pressure booster works but is more complicated and expensive. Using a double tip dilution system may or may not work if you have suction issues. You could try a double tip system using 2 large tips say 10/1 from the concentrate and 60/1 from the tank but I don't think the math works out exactly and you will need to play with it. If you are concerned with the 5 gallon bucket running out you could use a 30 gallon or 55 gallon drum for mixing.
All this overlooks a more important issue. Along with the steak - cleaning - we need to give the sizzle. If you feel the show could be better you customers may as well. Soap is relatively inexpensive. Customers should see color, foam, and some scent.

 

[PaulLovesJamie]

Welcome to the SSCW business, and to the forum.

He believes this gives him a mix ratio of 390:1 which is more than the 600-900 recommended by simonize.

I run all of my chems stronger than the recommendation on the label.

Must we pre-mix at all? The kleen-rite folks are suggesting the simonize hp soap to be used with either a pink or purple tip, causing me to wonder if we can change orifice tips and put the foot valve hose in the concentrate bucket

Nope, you can run directly from the concentrate bucket.
However...
I tend to agree with your "previous owner," I find that in the winter the lower ambient temps increase the viscosity of the already concentrated soaps, resulting in less draw through the hydrominder. For a while I would change tips in the winter, but I could not get consistency so I ended up pre-mixing with water and using the same tip year round. Note that I only do this with 2 of my chems, the thinner ones (like tire cleaner) I draw directly from the concentrate.

I also dont like the huge gaps in the standard tip sizes. Purple is 120, pink is 240. What do you do if you want to dilute somewhere in between? pre-diluting is a relatively easy answer.

 

[PaulLovesJamie]

All this overlooks a more important issue. Along with the steak - cleaning - we need to give the sizzle. If you feel the show could be better you customers may as well. Soap is relatively inexpensive. Customers should see color, foam, and some scent.

I see Earl beat me to it - I also view this as a #1 priority.
Soaps are a low enough percentage of costs that it boggles my mind when people cut back on soap usage. I hear operators say "you dont need much soap to get the car clean" and then I hear customers say "Hey, I'm not getting any soap." Day one of owning my SSCW I vowed to NEVER NEVER NEVER hear that.
Cleaning ability and SHOW are my 2 primary criteria for soaps, then I look at the cost.

 

[2Biz]

Something not mentioned....You could switch to a soap that doesn't require such high dilution ratios. I have Hydrominders that dilute to 240-1. So I use a soap (Warsaw) that gets diluted up to 90-1. I pay about $42 for a 5 gallon pail. Although I'm wondering if the cost is proportionate to the higher diluted ratio chemicals?

I try to tip the hydrominder to where I get a good show @ about 10oz's a minute drawn into the HP pump. If I need a little more soap, I don't change tips, I increase soap feed using a needle valve ahead of the soap solenoid...Then there are operators that don't use needle valves at all and tip to get the right show. There are many ways to achieve the same thing when it comes to chemical dilution. And pump stations can be very different as Earl points out.

 

[MEP001]

Awesome!! so this allows drawing straight from the concentrate bucket, into the mix tank. How do you determine orifice sizes? If you want to use the suggested orifice of pink (240:1) for the concentrate, then the other one drawing from the vat would need to be fairly large like black (1:5)?

Thanks!

If the chemical manufacturer doesn't have a recommended set of sizes to use with their concentrate, you pretty much have to determine one yourself with trial and error.

 

[Creole]

Thanks to all who replied:

Earl:

My sysem and many others draws from the Water / Rinse tank and a solenoid also opens for the HP tank when HP is called for allowing the HP soap to be drawn into the water supply to the pump along with the fresh water. If this is your setup , this dilutes the HP soap more than what is in the tank. Please check this out.

This is our system

Along with the steak - cleaning - we need to give the sizzle. If you feel the show could be better you customers may as well. Soap is relatively inexpensive. Customers should see color, foam, and some scent.

This is what we want (one of the things we discussed as a user in the past ourselves)

We're very excited to get started, and though we've been working / learning the past month, have been reluctant to "mess with anything". We take possession tonight at 10pm and will gradually "tweak" things to hopefully see our desired results.

I would be interested in seeing a picture of the "turtle valve" setup if anyone has one. I don't see temperature fluctuations being a problem due to our location in Oklahoma and the pump room having a fairly constant temperature with a heater and boiler in the same room....I think it's "hot" all the time, but maybe winter will really be different.

Creole.

 

[Kevin James]

I think you’re making a bigger deal out this than it really is. I’ve found that tip size is just good starting point. There are a lot variables that will affect soap draw from a soap container. We have 4 washes and use the same soap product at every wash and every wash has a different size tip in the hydrominder. The best way we’ve found is to start with the tip size that the manufacture recommends and if it is not giving you the “sizzle” you’re looking for go up to the next tip until you get the “sizzle” you’re looking for. Always follow the manufactures instructions.

 

[DiamondWash]

Take some pictures of your setup and post them.