Laserwash 4000 Arch Over-Rotate and carraige Over-Run

[kingsgatecarwash]

I am perplexed. Just like the title states, I have a problem where the carraige is suddenly over running, (like it has low air in the tires) and the rear prox is seeing the front flag, thereby stopping the machine, and also not allowing the joystick to move the carraige back. (until I unplug the rear prox). At the same time this problem occured, I also am having a problem with the arch over rotating. Sometimes it will go the 45 degrees as it should, but then other times it will over rotate by 10-15 degrees. Same with the carriage, sometimes it will stop in time, sometimes it will not. (more over rotate and over run than not). I have checked all proximity switches, and they seem to be functioning perfectly, and checked all the flags (on the arch and the rail). Nothing seems to be out of order. And the tires are at the correct pressure.

It is going to be a beautiful day (finally) tomorrow, and would sincerely appreciate any ideas. Oh- I have also checked all the wires in the control box, and they seem to all be connected and tight.

HELP! I know someone has probably had the same problem. I dont think it is a coincidence that they are both happening concurently.

Thanks!

Charlie

 

[whitescout]

Are you sure that all of the prox switches involved are properly adjusted, and working?

What is the condition of the festoon cable?

With the problem of the bridge over running the front, is this happening at the end of the wash, or during the wash?
If it is happening during the wash, I would start looking at the middle limit flag/prox switch, and then the front tbar eyes.
If it happening only at the end of the wash, I would check the front prox switch, and front prox cable.

Usually when a machine fails in one or more of the "corners", and does it randomly, it usually points to the festoon cable. There a few extra wires in the festoon cable that you could switch to rule out the festoon cable.

The other thing that could be causing the issues you are seeing, is your speed controller going bad. It appears that the " braking" is not working all of the time.

 

[kingsgatecarwash]

Insult to injury

Thanks for the ideas. All prox and photoeyes are (or seem to be) good. Only ran on last night at front. Buuuut, Here is what has transpired today. At midnight, I powered it down, and went home. When we got here this morning, it was far worse. When you try to move the joystick right, the machine goes left, left, it goes left. The rotation button still is wacky, the carriage does the same- forward when told to go back, and all sorts of random stuff.

I replaced the ABB inverter (VFD) thinking (almost certain) that it would solve this. Nope. Same crazed machine. It is like it completely lost its mind. And all of these things have to be somehow connected, as it was working perfectly right up until 8pm last night, and then all of this started. (Beginning with the over run and over rotation)

Even PDQ is baffled. The festoon cable was replaced 3 months ago or so, so I would say it is ok. But this would not cause the machine to respond opposite to what I am telling it to...would it? I am going to try a cold start, but again the reverse direction has me perplexed.... Thanks for your ideas! I will try everything. But there has to be a common thread....Arrgh. *At least it is cloudy today

 

[whitescout]

Try replacing the relays for the speed controller forward and reverse. These should be 30 and 31. The only other thing I could suggest, is if you have VT, then it could be the VT control board, as all of these inputs, go to the VT board first, and then go to the idec input cards.

 

[kingsgatecarwash]

In a nutshell

Ok, in its raw form, here is what is happening:

The bridge and trolley will go "forward" (output 32+30 or 33+30)
When told to go back, inputs are correct, and outputs are correct, but it still wants to go forward (or left in the case of the trolley).
We are getting input 10, 11, 12, and 13 from joystick to board. (FWD, BACK, LEFT, RIGHT)
We ar getting output 32 for bridge, and 33 for trolley with addition of 30 or 31 (30 if motor is running in forward, or 31 if motor is running in reverse)
***As a kicker, it randomly works correctly***

The other issue that I feel is related (as this all happened about the same time)- motors run about an extra second after the input/output has disengaged (but no "motor run on error") That is why it runs past the flag going forward to home and the rear prox imput is triggered because it goes forward that extra little bit, and why the arch is over rotating. Everything is related somehow, but they are all connected by different cables! 3 different cables (festoon or otherwise) are not going to go bad all at once.

Every bone in my body would say it is a VFD problem, but I replaced the VFD. The only difference with the ABB VFD installed is the new one has a sticker that says updated to version C.

So, this is something stupid simple. I just need to figure out what. Here is what it CAN'T be:
It CANT be the festoon, as that would be saying that 2 or 3 separate festoon cables failed in the exact same way at the exact same time.
It CANT be the VFD, as it was replaced (unless the new one happened to be broken just like my old one in the exact same manner)
IT CANT be the proximity or photoeyes, as they are all working sending proper signals.
It MOST LIKELY IS NOT:
The Input or output boards, as they are functioning, and sending signals like they should.

So what does that leave????? Not much. I will most definately post what it ends up being so if someone else ever has this nightmare, they can fix it quickly. I am losing $1000+ a day and don't have the second unit installed yet, so I am hemorraging fast.

One possible clue???? This “not going in reverse” problem was NOT occurring last night. I was only having the “over run” issue on trolley, bridge, and arch. I shut the machine off, and let it sit “OFF” overnight. When we showed up this morning, we powered it on, and then were hit with the additional problem of the “No REVERSE” issue.

Laserwash 4000 with Virtual Treadle ABB inverter, plumbing version #004 System Option #936065 Firmware 17.1.D

 

[whitescout]

Did you try replacing the relays(30 and 31) on the 30-37 output card? Not the whole card, but just the relays. It is possible that the relays are randomly sticking open or closed.

The other thing that you could do, is to turn speed controller forward or reverse off, ( one at a time) and test movement.

I just reread your reply, and saw that you do have VT. Do you have another VT board that you can put in to see if the problem is with your VT board? My $$$$ says it is the VT board.

 

[kingsgatecarwash]

Try replacing the relays for the speed controller forward and reverse. These should be 30 and 31. The only other thing I could suggest, is if you have VT, then it could be the VT control board, as all of these inputs, go to the VT board first, and then go to the idec input cards.

Replaced Relays, no difference. Question on VT board. Yes, I do have Virtual Treadle. But if it goes thru the VT board first then to the idec input cards, if I AM getting inputs on the Input cards (assuming IDEC input card(s) is/are the black boxes with the red lights), and conversely getting the output to trigger, woudn't that rule out the VT board? BTW it is 2.1 if that matters...

The first problem was the run on for all three motors (1 sec) and now this "only forward issue" on motors after unit was turned off overnight. (this is only in manual mode. I have no idea what it would do if I put a car in, as I cannot get it home, but I am assuming the same. If I can get it home, I will test and update) But even if that works, it will over run, and go past the front flag, trigger both prox'es and fail there.... DOH!

Your thoughts and insight is GREATLY appreciated. Thank you for taking the time.

 

[kingsgatecarwash]

Update

Did you try replacing the relays(30 and 31) on the 30-37 output card? Not the whole card, but just the relays. It is possible that the relays are randomly sticking open or closed.

The other thing that you could do, is to turn speed controller forward or reverse off, ( one at a time) and test movement.

I just reread your reply, and saw that you do have VT. Do you have another VT board that you can put in to see if the problem is with your VT board? My $$$$ says it is the VT board.

I will replace the VT board tomorrow if I can find it locally (Seattle area *if anyone has one around here let me know!) or overnight it and have it Tuesday. Hopefully that will be it.
I hope it is the cause of the overrun and the "forward only" problem. Nogo on the relays. I was hoping, but no dice. Same problem.

A few added details I have found.
-When I manually try to move it right, but only push the joystick for a second or less, it goes left, stops, stutters, and travels left a bit more. Unless of course it is at the limit, then it trys to ram thru and spin tires. But if I try to go left when it is at its limit, it acts as it should, not doing anything. I assume the reason it trys to go is that it sees that there is room to travel right, and in its mind it is preparing to in fact go right, but goes left, hence the forced attempt.

-Also, when it has this problem it will make the VFD display read 11hz, rather than zero (when idle). Not sure if this tidbit helps. But it is most certainly related. I will definately post the resolution to this nightmare of a problem...Hopefully TOMORROW!

 

[Mike]

Replaced Relays, no difference. Question on VT board. Yes, I do have Virtual Treadle. But if it goes thru the VT board first then to the idec input cards, if I AM getting inputs on the Input cards (assuming IDEC input card(s) is/are the black boxes with the red lights), and conversely getting the output to trigger, woudn't that rule out the VT board? BTW it is 2.1 if that matters...

Its probally your VT board, there are relays that control the direction of the signal to the speed controller.
Give me a call if you want, its to much to explain here.
Long story short, your vt can make this happen if its failing.


Regards
Mike

 

[kingsgatecarwash]

UPDATE! Mike, Whitescout and Kevin (via PDQ support on SUNDAY) were CORRECT! The unit over-running, as well as the non-reverse problem all boiled down to the VT board going bad. I was able to locate a board today, and unplugging and plugging back in a few phoenix connectors later (thank you PDQ for making it plug & play wire wise) I am back up and running! I hope this helps another operator that runs into this problem, as I woukd have sworn it was the VFD (ABB Inverter).

Thank you! Mike- do you guys repair VT boards if I send it back to you, as I'm sure it is merely a chip, capacitor, or something simple on a "board" level.

Up and running again! This is the longest I have EVER been down (35 hours. Down at 7:30pm Saturday, back up on Monday at 12pm. Only because I didn't have a spare VT board and being a weekend.
*** -Laserwash 4k Operators- *** I recommend you have a spare VT board, presoak pump, check valves (icheck magnums are great BTW), a couple output card relays, a prox, a t&r photoeye, boom hose, 1" swivel (straight and 90 degree), bridge hose, injector, large and small unloader, one regulator, breakaway bolt, General pump o ring and rebuild kit, arm o ring kit, hub, tube, tire, 2 rollers, and a couple Danfoss valves in stock. Spendy? A bit. But it is more expensive to be down for a full sunny day or two! If you have the items on this list, you should never be down more than a few hours. I will make a separate post with an emergency spare part list as well for laser 4k owners.

 

[Mike]

We do not repair VT boards any longer.
We do have new ones in stock for under 400 bucks.

Give me a call if you have any questions.

Regards
Mike

 

[Sudsy]

We fought this problem for years on our Laser changed motors, sensors, ran seperate wires from the J2 box, you name it we tried it seemed to be somewhat weather related like spring and fall, after changing the gear box we replaced the cables to the cam sensors finally fixed it.