How to you Evaluate the Effectiveness of your Soaps?

[bigleo48]

All,

I have an IBA and I have tried various soaps from many vendors. I titrate, pH test (meter and strips), I check my water hardness to ensure the softner is always doing its job. I heat to 120F, air to get even coverage and once a month I look at my chemical draw.

IMHO, the best performing soap is not the one that tests as the strongest. But that is a subjective evaluation...it's what 'looks' cleaner from cars going through my wash. Is there a way to conclusively tests, beyond the what I'm doing to better pick the best soap?

BigLeo

 

[rph9168]

From my experience it is all relative and subjective. What one person thinks is clean may not stand up to what another thinks. I think you have to set a standard you are comfortable with and try to maintain it or achieve it on a regular basis. Try to develop some objective criteria to judge your results like no eyebrow, clean rocker panels, no bugs, etc. That way you will have a checklist of your own to judge how well a product is performing.

There are also other factors in cleaning that you did not mention like dwell time (if you are touch free), application of the product as well as time of the year. In the winter what seems like a dirty car with an accumulation of salt cleans rather easily but a vehicle that has a great deal of road film that looks cleaner is very difficult to clean.

BTW - titration only tells you what the dilution of the product you are testing not the strength unless you are doing an alkalinity or acidity test. It also only gives you a snapshot of that dilution at the time you take it. I have set up a wash and come back a week later and had my titration results change rather drastically even though the settings were the same as when I left. Water pressure and consistency of product application can vary and change results from time to time as well.

Bottom line. I think your concerns are healthy for your customers. Too many operators have a "set it and forget it" mentality or leave it to someone else to worry about.

 

[Red Baron]

Not a scientific approach, but my next pickup will be black. I find that if I'm cleaning black vehicles, I'm cleaning.

 

[bigleo48]

rph,

Thanks for that and I guess that's what I was expecting. I do all the tests I know to try and get a better understanding of the correlation between the tests and car cleanliness. But it is subjective for sure (as Red Baron shows with his black truck test). But Is that it...subjective in the end? I can't accept that in a purely chemical reaction. There needs to be something else. Perhaps I should use samples of various dirts on glass and steel and us the Self-serve bay to determine the various effectiveness on soils.

But the black truck tests to me is not conclusive as I don't know the truck and with so many different soils on the road and air...you just can't test for them all. Lately I've been having problems with mud mixing with something else and turning to glue...so unless you closely inspect, you don't know. A quasi wet black truck can look clean!

BTW...I do two alkaline passes and dwell 30secs.

BigLeo

 

[Bob Koo]

This may be a stupid comment, but what about the old white towel or paper towel wiping. I realize this is very subjective depending on when the last time the test vehicles were washed. You may have to test a few cars to get a representative sample.

I would make sure that you use the same wash package for each product test and be sure it is a package that includes the air dryer. I never evaluate cars that are "wet" wash only and feel the dryer is part of the wash process.

Just my Input

 

[Red Baron]

rph,

Thanks for that and I guess that's what I was expecting. I do all the tests I know to try and get a better understanding of the correlation between the tests and car cleanliness. But it is subjective for sure (as Red Baron shows with his black truck test). But Is that it...subjective in the end? I can't accept that in a purely chemical reaction. There needs to be something else. Perhaps I should use samples of various dirts on glass and steel and us the Self-serve bay to determine the various effectiveness on soils.

But the black truck tests to me is not conclusive as I don't know the truck and with so many different soils on the road and air...you just can't test for them all. Lately I've been having problems with mud mixing with something else and turning to glue...so unless you closely inspect, you don't know. A quasi wet black truck can look clean!

BTW...I do two alkaline passes and dwell 30secs.

BigLeo

I applaud your efforts to reduce it to a chemical formula. The problem with that is, it's a moving target. I find I have to adjust my formulae several times per year for the season, and even then if some guy comes in with Oklahoma dirt, he might not get clean.

 

[Parker]

Lately I've been having problems with mud mixing with something else and turning to glue...so unless you closely inspect, you don't know. A quasi wet black truck can look clean!



BigLeo

I too use two alkaline passes but up here in Maine they put calcium chloride on the roads in the winter along with the summer?. It?s usually put down the same way except it is used to keep the dust down on dirt roads. Once mixed with mud it can become like cement and very hard to clean off the vehicle. I have been having a problem with it since we are located in a logging town where 75% of our customers are on dirt roads every day. The vehicle almost looks like it is still dusty after it?s washed. I am using a presoak (acidic) in a squirt bottle to test its effects by spraying it on half the car before it goes through the wash. Haven't actually had time to getting around to doing it but it hopefully will help, might even work for you...

 

[rph9168]

Parker,

One product that seems to work on calcium chloride are these bug removers that turn gooey upon application. The problem is that you would have to prep with it because application by the equipment would be rather expensive and much would be wasted on areas that may not need treatment. Otherwise you might try the strongest alkaline product you dare to use like a strong tire cleaner with an extended dwell time.

Road film is tricky especially in a touch free system. I once heard one of the top chemists in our industry define road film as "what's left on a vehicle after a touch free wash". Friction washes tend to do a better job with film if they use a high/low pH presoak/shampoo approach. With touch free the best I have seen is using HF which I do not recommend. Otherwise a good low pH presoak with extra dwell time followed by a strong alkaline is probably the best you can use. I have also seen decent results with the strong alkaline applied first. You would have to see what might work best with your equipment. In either case additional dwell time really helps. Certainly no guarantees for black vehicles.

 

[briteauto]

Good point Big Leo -

I knew an operator who actually did a "white glove" test. He had some of those white cotton gloves (similar to what people who handle coins might wear). When testing, after the car would exit his wash, (blower only, no towel of course) he would wipe one finger of the glove along the rocker panel, one one the hood, etc. - and various places of the car.

He had IBA, and was usually extremely dissastisfied. Keep in mind, a great deal of these cars looked clean - if they didn't he would not have survived, but as far as a true clean, he generally was not achieveing it.

Like I said, generally, the cars looked fine and he was not receiving complaints. but like you, Leo, he wanted to know what he really was getting out of his chemicals.

I agree with having a checklist for bugs, windshield mask, etc., but sometimes the simplest test - like his - can reveal a lot.

 

[Bud]

Aside from keeping a close eye on the cars coming through, don't you think your customers will let you know if they are not staisfied. Mine do. And you are right. "Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder". I want the cleanest car possible within reasonable expectations. If they wash regularly this shouldn't be a problem but I tell customers if I see a haze on their car that it needs scrubbed. The cutomer that washes every two or three months usually is not going to get a real clean car and that is basicly what I tell them. You know what? That customer really doesn't care. They usually say "it's fine, I just wanted to get most of it off. It is a "Touchless" process.

 

[rph9168]

In reality you are dealing with a customer's perception. As has already been pointed out, what some think is clean others may not. For some, the car is clean if the rims and tires look good. Others look at how well the windows come out. Still others check out the rockers or front and back. Some have extremely high standards while others are happy if the vehicle gets wet.

I like the fact that Leo is concerned about getting the best possible results. It's good business that all operators should adhere to. In almost all cases, the customers do set the standards for what is and is not clean. They will certainly let you know either by telling you how they feel or simply stop coming to the wash. Any operator showing concern and making an effort to continually judge their performance is doing themselves and their customers a true service.

 

[MEP001]

Aside from keeping a close eye on the cars coming through, don't you think your customers will let you know if they are not staisfied.

I would never count on customers to approach me when they're unsatisfied. A common belief is that most customers won't complain, they just won't come back.

 

[Plow Guy]

Sir Leo, I have a two-day self-serve carwash at 10,000 feet, within 40 miles we have a huge assortment of geological formations, the highway department in our area uses Mag chloride , caliber 1000 and 2000 and the strongest one of all ice slicer. Needless to say cleaning can be quite difficult. I use a very good high-pressure soap, it's alkaline and gives a good foam show but with pumping that with 3.2 gallons per minute of water it's hard to get great results. In the last, about 10 years, I've tested over 20 different presoaks, thinking using less water and more dwell time was an advantage. The way that I've tested these products is by using the factory recommended ratio through my hydra Minder and my tank, once I've used the product for a couple of days I'll take a sample and put it in a spray bottle then I'll change out the product with the new one that I want to compare with and use the same procedure and put it in a spray bottle also. I then take both products to the shop I worked at 40 hours a week, my day job, we have diesel tandem dump trucks in the shop and when you fire them up with the garage doors open they blacken the doors with soot. I'll use my handheld sprayer?s one in each hand and spray side by side panels on the doors, allow one minute of dwell time then rinse with cold water. This side by side comparison has helped a significant amount comparing manufacturer to manufacturer product. I'll then use the same side-by-side comparison on windshields on the truck and also the door panels and panels on the dump beds. The results of my tests have been quite conclusive, if a product is actually strong enough to clean and do a great job its clear. The strongest products I find are clear because they'll eat up the scent and color in the formula. The only problem is as if my customers spray on a clear product they don't think they're getting anything because they can't see or smell it. Quite the paradox. The best product I found was using an acid cleaner for an IBA, it did a great job on the glass and chrome, the problem was when this spray would get on your face it would burn your skin, I immediately quit using the product, I was worried about a lawsuit. Cheers, Pete.

 

[Bud]

MEP, I agree with you to a point but in a small town like ours where most people know each other and you see so many each day by being at the wash, I really feel that if there is a problem I will hear about it and I have heard about it. If I have 20 cars that don't clean well, I will atleast get a couple call me. I agree that you shouldn't count on this alone. You should always give the best wash possible but there are times that this is harder than others. Usually if I have a problem I titrate right away and if all is OK I look at my dwell time and possibley change the length or the sequence. I then try to watch the cars going thru. There are certain times of the year that it is VERY difficult to clean. I have even gone as far as finding someone with a real dirty car at the restaurant next door and test the wash with it.

 

[bigleo48]

Pete & Bud,

Pete, I love the spray bottle approach and will use it!!!! Very good idea.

Bud and Mep, I feel that when a customer complains, we have failed them as we should have caught it before the problem occurred. Not always possible, but that's what we strive for.

BigLeo