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Help with VFD for SS

MEP001

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I'd like to replace the motor starter with a VFD and have selectable speed control of the motor. I know almost nothing about VFDs, is this even possible?

I know I can do this with a solenoid and two regulators, but I don't want to constantly run the motor and bypass 2 GPM except for 1% of the time.
 

Greg Pack

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Someone will come along with much more knowledge, but you may need an oinverter rated motor for your application. You will also need another input to send to the VFD to change the speed. The ones i use on the water wizard have four different speed inputs. When you send 24VAC to one of the four inputs it changes the to the programmed speed. VFDs are not very difficult, you will figure it out quickly, but there are a lot of little tweaking parameters you can utilize that intimidate some, like ramp up speed, etc.
 

MEP001

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The ones i use on the water wizard have four different speed inputs.
That's exactly what I'm looking to do, but there's not much info on any of the sites where the hardware is sold.
 

JGinther

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You just need to purchase one sized for the motor if you already have 3 phase. If you are using a single phase source to run a 3 phase motor, the rule of thumb (contact specific manufacturer on sizing specs) is to go double size (10 HP vfd for a 5hp motor).

Power wiring is pretty basic for incoming and outgoing power (except in single phase input to 3 phase output, specific terminals must be used typically).

If the intent is to use 3 predetermined speeds, you would most likely need to wire 4 inputs but will have to read manual for specific drive. Most would require an input for each speed, and an input for 'run'. Wiring would be set up where the car wash 24vac wiring would operate signal relays, and those relays would throw voltage from the vfd controls itself (likely 24vdc), back to the vfd input board.

Then it's just a matter of finding every correct parameter required to configure it. Usually there's 15 or so just for setting the motor up (newer drives have an auto tune feature where the drive configures the motor parameters itself by 'sensing' the motor wiring). Likely would have to set parameters for remote run by input control, run using preset speeds, run signal from input wiring, coast to stop, speed for each input, ramp up speed per input, and others for anomalies like what to do during phase loss, alarm conditions, and fault conditions. All of those settings have default parameters, but are basically set up for running the drive only using the front of the drive buttons to run a motor at 60 hz.
 

OurTown

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That's exactly what I'm looking to do, but there's not much info on any of the sites where the hardware is sold.


Call Automation Direct. They were very helpful and seemed knowledgeable when asking lots of questions on a PLC project I'm considering.
 
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MEP001

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I found one on Automation Direct's site that will work and isn't crazy expensive. Hopefully they can simplify the learning curve, the manual is 700 pages.
 

mjwalsh

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We setup the parameters for three Hitachi WJ200s for our 2HP inverter duty motors about 10 years ago fo our laundromat's 902-1092 g force "spin very close to dry" extractors. A word of caution: We were warned because of the slower speeds that the VFDs may make the motors run slower to always use a motor rated for "inverter duty" which have their winding insulation specifications to accommodate possible less motor fan "heat dissipation" from possible lower than the maximum USA 60Hz electrical "utility provided" speeds.

The VFD-Inverter Motors were a good fit for our dedicated "spin only" extractors ... not sure on car wash applications.

It might be wise to download the service manual & the software upfront to see if the specific features match the specific application goal! The extra ports J Ginther mentioned might come in handy later on in case a person would like to revise the VFD's behavior in the unforeseen future.

It is nifty to be able to do the programming on a laptop & then upload the parameters via the micro USB port.
 
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Greg Pack

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A word of caution: We were warned because of the slower speeds that the VFDs may make the motors run to always use a motor rated for "inverter duty" which have their winding insulation specifications to accommodate possible less motor fan "heat dissipation" from possible
Along similar lines is something else to consider before you start installing VFDs on everything around the wash. Splash lubricated pumps may require a certain RPM to lubricate properly. This came up on garage journal a few years back because guys were installing drives on quincy air compressors and they needed a certain RPM threshold to lubricate properly

The energy savings can be substantial just by turning down the motor speed a little bit. I don't mean to imply that the VFD will pay for itself in a reasonable time, but it's interesting to think about
 

MEP001

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I'll be using it on a CAT 5CP2120W which has a minimum RPM of 100, so no issue there.

Running regular 5HP Baldor motors which by default are inverter ready, so no issue there.

The pump and motor pulleys are currently sized so that the pump runs only about 10% higher RPM than needed to maintain 1200 PSI, so the motors are drawing barely any more energy than is needed now. The only way I might save energy would be to convert it to using a pressure transducer, which I've seen used and really don't like on SS.
 

Greg Pack

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There is a youtube channel called precision electric that sells a particular off brand of VFD. They have several short videos of how to setup their own brand they sell but it will give you an idea of how easy it is, even if there are parameters that must be configured for more complex operations. Being that you seem more capable than most I'm sure you won't have any great obstacles.

My water wizard uses yaskawa drives and we change the drive motor speed to one of four programmed options. I think stock speeds are 25hz(ultra slow)30(slow)55(regular) and 70 (fast). I can change one of those programmed speeds in 60 seconds if I want. In a SS application you were going to use the pump to deliver spotfree through the cat pump you could use that input on the rotary switch to change the VFD speed to slow the pump down to whatever you need to provide the proper pressure.

Back to motor speed, I've seen some blower mfgs claim substantial energy savings by operating a motor just a little slower, again, no implication of a worthwhile reduction of energy, but would be interesting to see how much energy the pump uses at various speeds.

Share your project with us when you get it running! One of the things I like best about this site is seeing the ingenuity of other operators
 
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mjwalsh

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Running regular 5HP Baldor motors which by default are inverter ready, so no issue there.
I could be wrong but I am having trouble seeing where Baldor states &/or certifies their regular lower priced motors as inverter ready??? No offense intended. True inverter duty motors tend to be more expensive to the best of my limited information gathering ... that is not to say that some of us might get lucky running regular duty of whatever brand etc with a VFD.
 

MEP001

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I could be wrong but I am having trouble seeing where Baldor states &/or certifies their regular lower priced motors as inverter ready???
In the specs where it says "Inverter ready" it says Yes. Pretty sure it says so on the motor too, but I'm not even going to look.
 

mjwalsh

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In the specs where it says "Inverter ready" it says Yes. Pretty sure it says so on the motor too, but I'm not even going to look.
IMHO ... before most of us get too deep with a possible misunderstanding of the "specs" ... we should try to "get in writing" with a correctly authorized person at ABB-Baldor to try to avoid a situation where they could deny a possible future unforeseen warranty situation ... based solely on the specific motor ... not being one of their more expensive made specifically for VFD-INVERTER usage.
 

mjwalsh

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Like I said I could be wrong. I personally would call them and ask them about a lower speed setting on the vfd compatibility???
 

MEP001

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Like I said I could be wrong. I personally would call them and ask them about a lower speed setting on the vfd compatibility???
You're very clearly and obviously wrong. If you're so worried about it, call them yourself.
 

mjwalsh

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You're very clearly and obviously wrong. If you're so worried about it, call them yourself.
If it were my project...I would be concerned about the motor spec only showing 60 hz rather than a range of hz...as in 2-60 hz.
 
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