Cat 1010 clacking

[OurTown]

Our Cat 1010 spot free pump is clacking with the pressure dropping slightly. It will go weeks without doing it and then one day it will do it all day long. I checked the clamps on the suction side, pulled the head and inspected the cups. I'm not 100 percent sure what to look for but they looked okay to me. Do you guys have any other ideas?

Here is a link to video I shot today. Click on the thumbnail to hear the sound.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZyAEKFCpffm3BUs53

 

[OurTown]

Were you guys able to hear the video? It's a little hard to tell in the video but it clacks really loud when the pressure drops. I just remembered that I also pulled the check valve out of the underground tank and it worked fine. Does this sound like an issue with the suction hose issue or something in the head?

 

[MEP001]

It sounds like cavitation from a restriction in the supply. The check valve you pulled from the underground tank might not be opening fully, or there could be too much head from the tank being below the pump. Cat pumps are not meant to lift the pumped liquid.

 

[copperglobe]

From the video it looks like you're a Super Wash setup. They did a couple things with the RO setup that are tough on Cat pumps. First, take the reject line that comes off the Paraplate regulator and run it back into the RO tank not (as SuperWash does) back into the feed line. This is easily done by just hooking up a braid hose to the top of that Paraplate and running it back down the same conduit as the feed line back into the tank. Second: replace part number "77" (from the Cat diagram- they come in a kit) O-ring (2 each shaft). Your pump is "sucking" too hard bringing up the RO water from the buried tank and sucking air through those O-rings. Three: Make sure that foot valve down in the tank is clean, slime free and functioning. The way they fed the reject back into the feed line puts back pressure on that check valve. While you have the head off inspect those check valves to make sure no debris is preventing them from closing.

Been going through what you're going through for 30 years and it works for me. Those tiny little o-rings are the cause.

 

[OurTown]

It sounds like cavitation from a restriction in the supply. The check valve you pulled from the underground tank might not be opening fully, or there could be too much head from the tank being below the pump. Cat pumps are not meant to lift the pumped liquid.

The foot valve looks like it is opening all the way when I compare it to the others. Just to make sure I could put a new one in. According to Cat's web page on the 1010 it says that it has strong lift and can have an inlet pressure as low as a negative 8.5 psi. I'm not sure what that equates to in head suction height on a 1" hose but it could be on the edge to begin with.

From the video it looks like you're a Super Wash setup.

Yes.

They did a couple things with the RO setup that are tough on Cat pumps. First, take the reject line that comes off the Paraplate regulator and run it back into the RO tank not (as SuperWash does) back into the feed line. This is easily done by just hooking up a braid hose to the top of that Paraplate and running it back down the same conduit as the feed line back into the tank.

Could there be any negative issues with doing this? I'm just trying to figure out why they didn't do that day one.

Second: replace part number "77" (from the Cat diagram- they come in a kit) O-ring (2 each shaft). Your pump is "sucking" too hard bringing up the RO water from the buried tank and sucking air through those O-rings. Three: Make sure that foot valve down in the tank is clean, slime free and functioning. The way they fed the reject back into the feed line puts back pressure on that check valve. While you have the head off inspect those check valves to make sure no debris is preventing them from closing.

Been going through what you're going through for 30 years and it works for me. Those tiny little o-rings are the cause.

Great. It looks like either part #25392 or #28771 (not sure which ones to get) and Kleen-Rite sells them individually.

Thanks you guys. I'm not sure what we would do without this forum.

 

[I.B. Washincars]

I totally agree with running that regulator hose back into the tank. I can't see where it could do anything but help.

 

[copperglobe]

"Could there be any negative issues with doing this? I'm just trying to figure out why they didn't do that day one."

None.

 

[I.B. Washincars]

The reason that bypass is normally run back into the pump inlet is that it's easier and SS bays are always plumbed that way. They have to be, because if you were using soap or wax you couldn't dump that into your rinse tank. Since you are using it for SFR only there should be no issues.

 

[MEP001]

I always plumb the regulator bypass on the spot free back to the pump, especially with Procons, that way if the pump relay hangs and the pump runs with no flow it won't burn up or melt the plumbing. You'd be amazed to see a pump running all night heat up 500 gallons of water.

 

[I.B. Washincars]

I always plumb the regulator bypass on the spot free back to the pump

Don't you mean the tank?

 

[OurTown]

While waiting for the o-rings I ran the bypass back to the tank with 1/2" poly braid. It jumps quite a bit when the pump kicks on so I'm not sure how long the hose will last. Maybe it jumps because it empties out between washes. The good thing is that the clacking has stopped for now and it may likely be because of re-routing the bypass. It was clacking just before I re-routed it. Cat suggests installing flat valves instead of the quiet valves because they provide better lift. How can I tell what is in there now? Will it be obvious when I take the head off?

 

[copperglobe]

While waiting for the o-rings I ran the bypass back to the tank with 1/2" poly braid. It jumps quite a bit when the pump kicks on so I'm not sure how long the hose will last. Maybe it jumps because it empties out between washes. The good thing is that the clacking has stopped for now and it may likely be because of re-routing the bypass. It was clacking just before I re-routed it. Cat suggests installing flat valves instead of the quiet valves because they provide better lift. How can I tell what is in there now? Will it be obvious when I take the head off?

If you run the bypass into the tank and have the end down into the water/below the surface the bypass will stay full of water and you won't have that jump. I run the bypass to the bottom of the tank.

I don't know about the "flat valves" as Cat suggests- never seen nor used them. My Cat pump valves have a convex/concave shape (depending on how you look at them). With the 1010 pumps or 623 pumps I've never replaced them in a spot free application- 28 years.

 

[OurTown]

I looked at it again today and the water does stay in the hose so I'm not sure why it jumps. The hose is not to the bottom of the tank but it is pretty far down there.

 

[MEP001]

Don't you mean the tank?

Yes, I meant to the tank.

 

[OurTown]

Update

After running the bypass back to the tank the pump has sounded perfect after hundreds of washes. We never did replace the o-rings as was suggested but I have them on hand just in case. Now we are have something similar going on with the spot free pump for the self serve. It is the exact same setup as the spot free for the auto and is one pump supplying three bays. We were busy over the weekend and it started to have sort of a banging sound but without the pressure jump like the one on the auto. I looked through the cutouts in the pulley/belt cover and could see the belts slapping around a bit. Yesterday I tightened the belts and tested. As a preventative measure I ran the bypass on that pump back to the tank like I did for the auto. Now it sounds different than before. It's louder and not as smooth. Is it because it is returning so much water back to the tank compared to before? I'm going to try it with one of the gun handles tied open to see if it's any different sounding. I'll check the foot valve again too. The banging sound is gone for now but it only happened when we were busy the other day.

 

[copperglobe]

With the hose going into the spot free tank from the pump: With the pump running and the end of the hose under the surface look for air bubbles in that return line coming to the surface. If you've got air then you've got a leak in the suction side or those O rings on the push rods. If it's the O rings the air is being sucked through those rings from the air in the crank case. Experiment: with the pump running and a trigger gun tied open/in use unscrew the red fill cap on the crank case and lay a very thin layer of plastic, like cellophane or some thin stuff; lay it over that hole where the red cap was. If you see that plastic getting sucked in then you've got O rings issues. It won't suck hard or a lot but it'll suck some- noticeable. I've also experimented with hovering an incense stick over that opening and watched the smoke get sucked down into the crank case.

 

[OurTown]

Great suggestions! I had air bubbles coming up from the tank but there was not any suction when I took the red cap off. When I looked closer at the suction side I noticed the hose between the filter and the pump was collapsed. The filter housing had a bunch of stuff in it that looked like it had suspended particles in it that it picked up. The new return line has a lot of returning water so maybe it kicked up sediment from the bottom of the tank? I cut a few feet off of it hoping it stays off the bottom. Maybe it is time to clean out our tank.

 

[OurTown]

Our SS pump was starting to gradually get louder so in July I bought a piston kit, sleeve kit, and a flat valve kit. (this flat valve kit is supposed to help lift water from our underground tank) $450 in parts later it sounded so good and we did not realized it was supposed to be so smooth. Looking back that smoothness didn't last that long and the clacking has slowly crept back and sounds terrible now. Maybe worse. The pressure is steady though. Several years ago I did bypass the return to the tank on this pump as suggested. I'm going to look at what was suggested to look at before but wanted to know if anyone wanted to add anything else to look at. Very frustrating.

 

[MEP001]

Have you considered a tank and lift pump or sump to supply the pump flooded instead of making it lift from underground?

 

[OurTown]

Have you considered a tank and lift pump or sump to supply the pump flooded instead of making it lift from underground?

Yes I have thought of that but others have seem to make it work so I'm sure there is something else wrong with our system.