Bay eating GinSan 401 timers for lunch!

[RockyMountain]

2 Timer issues- 2 days one bay. Coincidence or am I missing something??

A GinSan 401 timer for my bay #2 went out as if it didn't have power. I put in a backup and it worked fine. I tried the timer in another bay slot and it would not power on. My assumption is a bad timer. One day later, the backup 401 now in bay #2 will not turn on the bay. For example, put in $2- 4 min in the bay and the bay as well as the timer in the bay will not start. The 401 timer does start counting down however. When I turn on the switch to power up the bay manually, then the timer in the bay does start, but it still doesn't control the bay running or not. The voltmeter shows that the wiring to the timers is the same as in all the other bays.

So again, 2 Timers- 2 days one bay. Coincidence or am I missing something??

 

[MEP001]

You may have a short that's causing the timer output to fail. You might consider a 2A fuse to protect it. It may just be a coincidence, but a fuse will prevent damage to another timer if it's not.

See if all the functions work normally with your manual run switch on. Use a pilot light or voltmeter to see if there's a major drop in voltage when you select a particular function.

 

[RockyMountain]

You may have a short that's causing the timer output to fail. You might consider a 2A fuse to protect it. It may just be a coincidence, but a fuse will prevent damage to another timer if it's not.

See if all the functions work normally with your manual run switch on. Use a pilot light or voltmeter to see if there's a major drop in voltage when you select a particular function.

There are fuses in place and I did blow one while I was trying to figure things out. I'll check the voltages on each particular function. Is that how to go about isolating the short?

 

[Jim Caudill]

Since I am unfamiliar with your specific timer and wiring, I have to ask. Does your timer output go thru an "ice cube" relay to provide power for the switch functions or is the timer output wired direct?

In my system, the timer simply activates the "pull down" or control coil in an ice cube relay. The power for all the switch functions travels thru the "switched contacts" of the "ice cube" relay, and this power is fuse protected. The relay makes it simple to divide the system in half for troublshooting and protects the timer.

If your system is similar, then you only need to look at source power for the timer and the control circuit for the relay.

 

[MEP001]

There are fuses in place and I did blow one while I was trying to figure things out. I'll check the voltages on each particular function. Is that how to
go about isolating the short?

It's a quick method to do so. I use a pilot light because if you select a function that for example has a shorted solenoid coil, the light will dim. A volt meter will work too, you'll see a drop in voltage if there's a short.

 

[Dan kamsickas]

It's a quick method to do so. I use a pilot light because if you select a function that for example has a shorted solenoid coil, the light will dim. A volt meter will work too, you'll see a drop in voltage if there's a short.

Yup. There is definately a wiring issue taking out the timers. Now comes the fun part of tracking it down and using the pilot light is a quicker way to do it.

I would like to get the timers back to look at, so contact our technical department for a return authorization number.

 

[RockyMountain]

Since I am unfamiliar with your specific timer and wiring, I have to ask. Does your timer output go thru an "ice cube" relay to provide power for the switch functions or is the timer output wired direct?

In my system, the timer simply activates the "pull down" or control coil in an ice cube relay. The power for all the switch functions travels thru the "switched contacts" of the "ice cube" relay, and this power is fuse protected. The relay makes it simple to divide the system in half for troublshooting and protects the timer.

If your system is similar, then you only need to look at source power for the timer and the control circuit for the relay.

It does go through an "ice cube" relay. The fuses that are there are 32V and 10A. Does that seem like the right amperage? Not being an electrician, how does one test the control circuit for the relay? It seems as if the source power is correct.

Thanks!

 

[MEP001]

10A seems like an awful lot. The transformer is presumably 100 or 150VA, that's 1% of the 10A fuse. 1 or 2 is what I've always used and seen used. The important thing is to use a fuse that's not higher than any rated circuit in the system to protect its load-bearing components, and it should be on the main line so if a solenoid blows that fuse, the power to the coin acceptor is also cut and no one after that point will lose money.

 

[RockyMountain]

10A seems like an awful lot. The transformer is presumably 100 or 150VA, that's 1% of the 10A fuse. 1 or 2 is what I've always used and seen used. The important thing is to use a fuse that's not higher than any rated circuit in the system to protect its load-bearing components, and it should be on the main line so if a solenoid blows that fuse, the power to the coin acceptor is also cut and no one after that point will lose money.

So I assume that it's bad news that when I put a 1A, 32V fuse in, it blew in a hurry. Any ideas on what could be causing that? The electrician I had come out was more clueless than I am... which is pretty clueless.

 

[captain cw]

You probably need a real car wash tech. I find that electricians never notice bad solenoid valves or grounded wires.

 

[Jim Caudill]

If he has an ice cube relay, then the timer is only supplying the small amount of current necessary to close the coil inside the relay. Regardless of any other "faults" with the switch, solenoids, or other relays; the power is coming from another fused circuit - NOT from the timer! Look at your wiring from the timer to the control contacts of the "ice cube" relay. Depending on your relay, you could have as many as 6 tabs for wiring to plug-on. They will all be parallel to each other and to the top & bottom of the cube. Those connectors are for whatever function you wish to control with the relay: In this case, this is the power feed for your multi-function selector switch.

Now, there will be 2 connectors that are at a right angle to the ones we just discussed, they will be paralle to the "sides" of the cube. These are the "control contacts". One of them will go to ac common, and the other will come from the timer. Whenever the timer has "time remaining" on the display, it should be passing low-voltage ac power to the 1 contact on the ice cube relay. 1 amp for the circuit should be plenty, check for intermittent shorts between the timer and the relay. Replace the relay with a spare (they only cost about $7 each).

Looking at the switch and self-serve functions seems like a waste of time. Look at the voltage going to the timer to insure there isn't a problem with your low-voltage transformer. Not very common that they would be able to generate too much voltage, but hey, you never know.

I'm betting on either a wiring fault between the timer and relay, or a bad relay (corrosion and/or water infiltration)

 

[MEP001]

Any ideas on what could be causing that?

I have a pretty good idea. Have you tried what I suggested?

 

[Dan kamsickas]

So I assume that it's bad news that when I put a 1A, 32V fuse in, it blew in a hurry. Any ideas on what could be causing that? The electrician I had come out was more clueless than I am... which is pretty clueless.

I talked to someone yesterday on the phone that was having a similar problem. He said that he was measuring 40v on his low voltage side. Was that you?