Wondering if any of you guys thought about NOT using your distributor for your install of an in bay automatic? What about the thought of "sub-contracting" an installer but still keep the distributor involved in the machine start-up? That way it doesn't get messey with warranty issues. Your thoughts?
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petitemoose
Member
I know of Distributors that do this on a daily basis. They send out guys in trucks that they claim are employees but are in fact nothing more than day laborers for them. This works for them because A) they don't tell you and B) they don't tell you. There are people on this board that are currently suffering from being on the receiving end of this practice.
However, if YOU do it they most likely will not honor the warranty. Speaking as a Distributor/ Installer myself, I would not be interested in that situation and here's why:
When we sell a machine there is a profit margin. ( I know, big surprise) That profit margin pays for expenses of all types from gas to gadgets and from hotels to heart holding bears to the wife to say I'm sorry for working 80 hours a week. The installation of the equipment also carries a profit margin but that margin is used to cover expenses after start-up. The Manufacturers do not pay us to fix their machine in the warranty period. Ford and Chevy may pay their dealers, but Belanger and Sonny's don't! That is our responsibility to keep that machine alive and well. We structure our warranty to cover everything for 90 days after start-up and then Parts only after that until the Manufacturer's warranty expires ( typically 1 year ) For those first 90 days, I'd have a really hard time convincing myself to make a free trip that could take all day to fix something I didn't do and I didn't make anything off of. You are opening yourself up to a battle of pointing fingers where you will be the ultimate loser. Good Lord help you if your installers neglect a check valve and water fills your air compressor or they don't fasten the embillical structure correctly and you compact the hood of a new Benz. Your distributor isn't going to provide the labor and materials at no cost to you for that. You're going to get charged and charged heavily.
A few extra dollars spent now may save you a couple thousand spent later. At a MINIMUM it will eliminate any finger pointing and give you one company to praise or pounce. Don't always look for the best price, Look for the best VALUE. Those are two different things entirely
However, if YOU do it they most likely will not honor the warranty. Speaking as a Distributor/ Installer myself, I would not be interested in that situation and here's why:
When we sell a machine there is a profit margin. ( I know, big surprise) That profit margin pays for expenses of all types from gas to gadgets and from hotels to heart holding bears to the wife to say I'm sorry for working 80 hours a week. The installation of the equipment also carries a profit margin but that margin is used to cover expenses after start-up. The Manufacturers do not pay us to fix their machine in the warranty period. Ford and Chevy may pay their dealers, but Belanger and Sonny's don't! That is our responsibility to keep that machine alive and well. We structure our warranty to cover everything for 90 days after start-up and then Parts only after that until the Manufacturer's warranty expires ( typically 1 year ) For those first 90 days, I'd have a really hard time convincing myself to make a free trip that could take all day to fix something I didn't do and I didn't make anything off of. You are opening yourself up to a battle of pointing fingers where you will be the ultimate loser. Good Lord help you if your installers neglect a check valve and water fills your air compressor or they don't fasten the embillical structure correctly and you compact the hood of a new Benz. Your distributor isn't going to provide the labor and materials at no cost to you for that. You're going to get charged and charged heavily.
A few extra dollars spent now may save you a couple thousand spent later. At a MINIMUM it will eliminate any finger pointing and give you one company to praise or pounce. Don't always look for the best price, Look for the best VALUE. Those are two different things entirely
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All have valid points. But to respond to what the distrubutor guys said: Day laborers, guys that have only worked for a distributor for 3-6 months, that's what I see n the industry all the time. I am qualified to install equipment from Ryko to Vectors to PDQ, why wouldn't a operator want to hire a experienced team than run the risk of a half assed job by a distributor? My experience has been that when you buy equipment just about every distributor will tell you that they make little to no profit on installs. Which I can understand with gas, hotels, and 80 hour work weeks from he guys. But the operator still has to hire an electrican, plumber, etc. and how helpful are the distrutors with that? As an operator now I wish there was a "qualified" company that I could hire to install my equipment. This way I am not at the mercy of the distrbutor and what he says and can get the equipment installed in my car wash the way that works for me. I'm sure the factory's would warranty the work as long as they know the installer is qualified.
For example another operator in my community bought a IBA from a factory direct company. I bought my 2nd machine from a distributor (different brand). Mine was on the ground in my lot for almost 3 weeks until the disributor got to it. The other guy was an easy 5-6 weeks for install to start, then an additional 4 weeks to completion. That kinda time frame would put some guys out of business! Those are what I would like all of us as operators to avoid and have an alternative option.
Distributors are people that we have relationships with and need to trust but they look out for their bottom line, we need to protect ours. You can only beat them up for so much, and let's face it the equipment is what we fall in love with not the distributor. He's just our support system and I can respect that.
For example another operator in my community bought a IBA from a factory direct company. I bought my 2nd machine from a distributor (different brand). Mine was on the ground in my lot for almost 3 weeks until the disributor got to it. The other guy was an easy 5-6 weeks for install to start, then an additional 4 weeks to completion. That kinda time frame would put some guys out of business! Those are what I would like all of us as operators to avoid and have an alternative option.
Distributors are people that we have relationships with and need to trust but they look out for their bottom line, we need to protect ours. You can only beat them up for so much, and let's face it the equipment is what we fall in love with not the distributor. He's just our support system and I can respect that.
I think it can work both ways. There are very talented people out there that can install a machine. They are called millwrights. Some are really good. I would rather have someone who installs all the time do it rather than a day laborer with the distributor. And speaking of installations, if the water and electricle work is done before hand, no job should take more than a week. If it does, you ain't making any money. My main competitor down here takes two months to install a basic three brush rollover. That is two months where the owner is making payments with no money coming in. Also, read the warranty that comes in the owners manual. I have yet to see one that states that you have to use the distributor or his chemicals. There have been times where our workload was too backed up for me to use my guys to do an install. The Magic Wand guy came down and did it by himself in two days. Not bad.
newhampshiretech
Member
I guess I always thought the distributors had trained installers and techs. guess its different region to region. I just left working at a distributor in Mass. when we had a machine ordered . I was there to take it off the truck when it showed usally on thurs or fri. then back monday 7 am to start putting it in. we would have the electricians and plumbers there during building constructionprior to the machine showing up . with one of us from time to time to check on there work. and they might be there 3-4 days with us. but 5 weeks thats crazy. Ive done a single bay g5 install. 5 days me and one laborer retro . done soup to nuts. and if it was a brand new building etc as long as the electricians and plumbers are good( we luckily used the sames guys whenever possible) we look at 2 weeks 3 if there are complications. mis-ships or incorrect equipment etc. maybe thats why we were the number 1 distributor for them in 2005. I just thought this was the norm. if we took 5 or 6 weeks or a machine sat in the lot of a customer for 3 weeks untouched the folks out here in the boston area woulda had uncle vinnie and tony at my house with bats you can count on it.
okay Chip, i get it but you know as well as i do that Nonstop has in the past left machines to sit, without any guys to install! And let's face it, from what i have heard things have gotten better since their change over. But the talent out there is still new. Wash tech down in VA i heard uses sub-installers that put everything up then Wash tech starts it up! That seems like the way to go. Or even better from an operators stand point have the installer your main service tech/maintance guy. But what distributor could offer that? My guess is a small one with not enough of a staf to support you when down on a busy weeend.
My thought is that installs are the easy part, service and warranty is where things always get ugly. Come on 15k for 1 bay install and I as an operator have to do all the support utility work? Their nuts! I'd start my own company and do it for half, especially a Laser G-5!
My thought is that installs are the easy part, service and warranty is where things always get ugly. Come on 15k for 1 bay install and I as an operator have to do all the support utility work? Their nuts! I'd start my own company and do it for half, especially a Laser G-5!
pitzerwm
Active member
I bought a Powerain and installed it myself. I had zip for experience. I put in the 3ph power, extended the building 15', and all the plumbing. Another guy in a nearby town was installing another brand had a crew of 4 there from the distr. and we both got it open at the same time. He paid them $40K and needless to say he was really pi$$ed that I accomplished what I did. Powerain was a lot of help and later bragged in their sales pitch that anyone could install it.
newhampshiretech
Member
oh man! you called me Chip, now I'm insulted. He is about 4 years behind me in seniority and 10 behind me in ability.
man they get 15k for install I should've gotten more raises.
I cant say how they do it in VA,
but I have in the past gone behind laborers and started machines up , not a walk in the park like it is when you install it yourself.
and I only think the warranty and service are ugly if the install isn't done well.
as with any venture there are times when things go slower than expected. like bills not being paid . buildings not finished. electricians that run the wrong wire size or to the wrong location. or just think they know better. plumbers that don't show. and plenty of things we as a distributor mess up improper orders or wrong sizing etc. Ive seen huge blunders. but I have also taken huge blunders and made them into great outcomes.
there was a time when things were tight we didn't have the manpower to handle the huge sales. trust me I felt the pain too. 65 hours of install coupled with nights and weekends of service work.
and you're right the talent probably is new now. seeing as I left . along with countless other senior people from the mass office. so theyll have to play catchup.
I only feel bad because I saw this as a tech/installer but I was limited in what I could do to change things. All I had were knowledge, wrenches, and opinions no executive power.
newhampshiretech
Member
but I guess I was referring to my earlier years when the head service guy was the installer like Bruce or myself , you asked what distributor could offer that? the old Nonstop, they did. thats when we were good. IMHO
not that they aren't good now and getting better.
and I guess someone like you could do half the work and cut cost I would too. but not everyones capable thats why theres a demand for people like you and me. if everyone could do there own there wouldn't be any distributors.
but alas I'm no longer there so I sleep better now.
not that they aren't good now and getting better.
and I guess someone like you could do half the work and cut cost I would too. but not everyones capable thats why theres a demand for people like you and me. if everyone could do there own there wouldn't be any distributors.
but alas I'm no longer there so I sleep better now.
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Its been my experience that the initial installation is critical. Bad equipment can be fixed, but a bad install will haunt you forever. I am a small operation and do all my own installations. I am at the site from the time the truck arrives until startup and final testing. Since I sell the equipment, I want to be sure it operates and performs as it is supposed to, and as I told the customer it would. I don't make a whole lot on the install, but then, when the install is done properly, I don't have many warranty issues. I have seen bad installs where the customer has a multitude of problems afterwards, all of which could have been avoided.
RykoPro
Technician/Manager
Trained experts make more sense
Mike hit the nail on the head. This is why you need installers specifically trained on the equipment to be installed. We only use trained technicians. I have high standards and it is a waste of my time to continually show a day laborer what to do. If you purchase equipment that anyone off the street can install, most likely you have purchased a low quality product anyway. I am lucky to have a team of great installers/technicians and they know what I expect (perfect is almost good enough). If they were only marginal, I would oversee every action they performed at the install, its that important to get the installation done right the first time.
Mike hit the nail on the head. This is why you need installers specifically trained on the equipment to be installed. We only use trained technicians. I have high standards and it is a waste of my time to continually show a day laborer what to do. If you purchase equipment that anyone off the street can install, most likely you have purchased a low quality product anyway. I am lucky to have a team of great installers/technicians and they know what I expect (perfect is almost good enough). If they were only marginal, I would oversee every action they performed at the install, its that important to get the installation done right the first time.
rph9168
Carwashguy
Looking at the bigger picture, does it make sense to pay thousands of dollars for a piece of equipment and try to save a few thousand on the installation? Like so many have already stated, a bad installation usually leads to problems in the future and it is sometimes not even possible to correct.
petitemoose
Member
I tend to agree with you on this one, that does seem a bit excessive. Not knowing which machine and what is involved, my agreement with your opinion may be premature but It would have to be one VERY intense install to warrant those dollars. Especially if you are supplying the Trades.
The BIG picture you need to focus on is what will you lose by installing it yourself rather than what you will save. Call the Manufacturer and see if you installing it will affect the warranty. If so, in what way? Have them put it in writing. I can guarantee you will lose any warranty supplied by the Distributor but, you already know that. Be sure you will be able to get support direct from the Manufacturer during the Install and more importantly, AFTER. Get that in writing too. If you install it yourself, you will be doing the warranty repairs and you will need more support than you can get from an Owner's Manual or Installation Manual.
Distributor vs. Factory direct
Okay, i have been doing this since 96 and have the talent to fit just about any carwash into just about any building, including tunnels. Let say i wanted to start my own installation company and have my installers be part owners. Then rest assured the quality would be there! And as far as manufacturers go, they are in the business of sellig equipment that's it! I know that my distributor quoted the same equipment I bought from him 6 months later to a competitor within 3 miles of me with the same traffic pattern. Come-on these guys can say they offer protection but we all know that $$ talks, especially major oil. I think we as operators have every right to demand total control over a project and hire good guys with a neutral stake in it to install the equipment. I'd rather the guys installing it be thinking of how to do it right than how to sell me the nxt thing. Would any of you guys consider hiring a totally independant company to install it if you knew it would not effect warranty?
Okay, i have been doing this since 96 and have the talent to fit just about any carwash into just about any building, including tunnels. Let say i wanted to start my own installation company and have my installers be part owners. Then rest assured the quality would be there! And as far as manufacturers go, they are in the business of sellig equipment that's it! I know that my distributor quoted the same equipment I bought from him 6 months later to a competitor within 3 miles of me with the same traffic pattern. Come-on these guys can say they offer protection but we all know that $$ talks, especially major oil. I think we as operators have every right to demand total control over a project and hire good guys with a neutral stake in it to install the equipment. I'd rather the guys installing it be thinking of how to do it right than how to sell me the nxt thing. Would any of you guys consider hiring a totally independant company to install it if you knew it would not effect warranty?
newhampshiretech
Member
under this scenario. if it wouldn't effect warranties . and the distributor was aware he would not be installing the wash. I think that a company like that could do great things. Its a specialized task force of knowledgeable techs/installers doing a high grade install. and I would imagine after a company like this was getting a good name out there the distributors would hire them as opposed to laborers. so I guess at second glance it may be lucrative.
New Hampshire Tech, thank you for seeing my point! I think that it would only take a year or so establish a good reputation. The hard part would be convincing manufacturer's and distributors to use you instead of themselves. Think of it as a distributor, you still get the sale, (main profit source) and not have to carry the "overhead" of an install team. Then the distributor can focus solely on sales and service. What drives their reputation, and revenue. The install company could set itself up nationwide, or install wherever needed for a certain area. Let's face it if I were to charge 12k to install a Laser G-5 and leave it to the distributor to do the final start-up, for warranty purposes, I could have it running in 5-7 days and Holidays and Weekends would be worked through to get it running. As a customer I would feel that I was getting the best of both worlds. An experienced install team and a piece of equipment that is supported by local technicians. I think this idea could reshape the way distributors and manufacturer's take care of their customers. If the core of major problems occur on install, like fore mentioned, then don't you operators deserve a choice?
Jimmy Buffett
Active member
Given how overbuilt the industry is I would be leary of becoming too dependent on new installations.
MEP001
Well-known member
Remember he's including C-stores, which replace their machines every few years, which means a never-ending stream of installs.Jimmy Buffett said:
Installer, your idea sounds like a good one in theory. Getting factory certified would help your cause and the distributor's since they can honor parts under warranty becausee they made sure they had the machine installed properly. It's not always true, however, that a distributor's job is just to sell the machine. An installation done properly in a timely manner is very profitable. We used to install D&S 5000s and have them up and running within three days of having the crates and rails delivered.
