The 5th Altentative Energy Source

[Waxman]

Is "increased efficiency".I was happy to read this article in Time Magazine the other night at my daughter's dance studio. Talked all about what we can do to increase efficiency everywhere, from cpfl bulbs to better cars, more insulation, soft starts for big electric motors, water savings, etc.

I know it's what alot of carwashers already do, but it merits more discussion.

I've already noticed a savings in propane and water at my carwash, just implementing timers and an RO reject recovery system. 2009 will bring at least one more low-cost, water saving setup into existence at my place.

Is everyone else focused on efficiency?

 

[MEP001]

I'm always interested in ways to boost efficiency, but I wouldn't say I'm focused on it. Seems like everything I check out that claims to be a big energy saver ends up being a crock. I considered replacing the lighting in one bay with LED lighting, until I did the math and discovered that over the 15-year expected life of the LED fixtures and replacing them at that point vs. the energy cost and 18-month replacement of bulbs and capacitors on what we have now, the savings over that entire 15 years would only be $100 per bay. It would save some energy and a little labor, but it would give less light. Hardly seems worth it.

 

[Randy]

I remember back in the early 70?s during the first energy shortage. Everyone was turning down there thermostats. Those that could burn wood heated there homes with wood. Super insulated there homes, with more insulation and thermo pane windows. The reward for all of there efforts were higher utility bills because the energy companies profits had dropped so much because everyone was cutting back conserving. I have to agree with MEPP, it's all BS most of the time.

WAXMAN what's your next money saving tip for 2009?

 

[Waxman]

I'm developing a rainwater harvesting system for my new detail shop.

It will be simple and low cost.

I'd like it to pre-heat the water, too.

It will be used April-November only.

During those months, I'd like to use city water in the detail shop for drinking only, with laundry and bathroom being fed by rainwater.

 

[I.B. Washincars]

When you told the sewer company of your rainwater harvesting plan how did they say they would calculate the sewer rate?

 

[rph9168]

In our area the sewer rate is tied to the amount of water used so I would think if this cuts down on water usage, the sewer rate would go down.

 

[Waxman]

Same here. The sewer and water charges are directly linked.

The sewer charges would decline by the amount of water saved.

 

[I.B. Washincars]

So the sewer company said they were ok with treating effluent that you didn't pay for?

 

[Randy]

I looked into once at my house and at the car wash. Up here the state owns the water rights to the rain that falls from the sky. You have to get a special water use permit before you can get a building permit to install a rain water harvesting system. It a HUGE NO, NO!! To connect a Non-Potable system to a Potable system, they have to be physically separated. Don?t think your going to get away with not paying sewer fees. At my house they wanted me to install a flow meter on the pressurization pump and at the car wash they want me to install a flow meter on the discharge off the sewage pump at pumps the gray water from my system into the sanitary sewer. A year or so ago there was a guy who installed a rain water harvesting system and the local news paper did an article about his system. He had an open house showing everyone his green system to save water. A person from the city showed up to look over his system and on Monday morning the city pulled his water meter. No permits, it was cross connected to the Potable water system, when they removed the meter water came back from house. His pressiurization pump was pumping water back into the city Potable system. Needless to say he was in deep do, do.

 

[Waxman]

Checked with sewer dept. in my town. there are currently no regulations on the books or up for a vote that address rainwater harvesting. I already received an okay from water and sewer depts. for my system.

the wastewater plant treats all the rainwater collected in stormdrains, so how is treating my rainwater a net increase for the sewer dept?

as far as cross-contamination, that's what backflow preventers are for.

 

[MEP001]

Sounds like you're pretty safe all around. I don't think it's against any of our local laws to harvest and use rainwater, but we do have a separate sewage treatment setup from the normal rain runoff, and allowing rainwater to flow into the sewer is prohibited.

 

[Randy]

Dave to sure to get a plumbing permit to cover your backside when you do this project.
I don?t know of anywhere where you can connect storm water drains to the sanitary sewer system. It wouldn?t take much of a heavy rain to flood out the sewage treatment plant. A couple of years ago in the older part of town the city had a problem with home owners who had connect the downspouts from there roofs to the sanitary sewer. Every time it rained the treatment plant on that end of town would flood. The city started smoke testing the sewer system and they were surprised at the large number of homes that had there downspouts connected to the sewer. They aren?t connected any more.

 

[pitzerwm]

The deal is that he isn't connecting it to the sewer, he is using it, its not a closed or pressurized system.

 

[MEP001]

I don’t know of anywhere where you can connect storm water drains to the sanitary sewer system.

In the early 1900's when some Massachusetts (and other) sewage systems were laid, they were combined with rain water pipes and just dumped into the ocean or the Boston Harbor. Now they have to treat all the water to certain standards, sewage and rain water alike. There are frequent sewage back-ups during heavy rains.

 

[Waxman]

I fully intend to completely and painstakingly comply with any and all local and state regulations when I begin this project, including, of course, pulling a plumbing permit.

It's in my best interest to see that the project is done properly and legally. Otherwise, any money savings (my main reason for the project) would be negated!

That's why I have already made contact with the town departments as well as the MA DEP office in Worcester.

I'm too legit to quit!

 

[BillClinton]

It sounds like a good idea. Can you tell me a little about your proposed system? What size tank? How do you hook it in? Are you just feeding your rinse tanks like the RO reject system. I have operated a wash for only 8 months and am ready to implement such a project.
thanks,

 

[Waxman]

I plan to use a few 250 gallon totes, stored on a sandy area behind my shop, tied together w/pvc. downspout diverters with a valve to switch the system back and forth rom the existing gutters, some pre-filters, screens for gutters, a pump to pull the water into the building, and some plumbing tied into my washing machine and toilet, complete with backflow preventers.

 

[Earl Weiss]

In the early 1900's when some Massachusetts (and other) sewage systems were laid, they were combined with rain water pipes and just dumped into the ocean or the Boston Harbor. Now they have to treat all the water to certain standards, sewage and rain water alike. There are frequent sewage back-ups during heavy rains.

Ditto, a lot of the Chicago area. Used to dump sewage in Lake Michigan, and then the Chicago river. Now, all the water gets treated and the chicago River was made to flow backward from Lake Michigan to the Mississippi so we can send all the stuff down south. To prevent heavy rains from having to open the river locks and send river water into the Lake, a "Deep Tunnel system was built as far down as 200 feet underground with Tunnels 30ft in Diameter for miles and miles. This was the pioneering use of the Tunnel Boring Machine later used to make the Chunnel. Sometimes during heavy rains the Tunnel gets filled and some raw waste still has to be let out into the lake.

 

[bigleo48]

Back to the subject on utility efficiency, I would start with a complete audit of the existing facility. For example, last week I looked at all my tank filling settings for my M5. What I realized is that my solenoids were set to shut off 10 seconds after full...on a 1" pipe!!!! You can imagine how much water I wasted down the overflow pipes in 2 years! So a simple click of a mouse saved me a ton of water!

BigLeo

 

[Waxman]

Excellent! That's why I think some focus on efficiency is imperative in business these days.

I'm also looking at soft-starts for HP pump motor, blower motors and compressor, as a way to decrease peak demand and thus lower my power bill.

My electrician advised contacting the power company to see if any incentives are available.