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Tankless Raypack floor heater
- Thread starter Eric H
- Start date
Bubbles Galore
Active member
Did you ever find anything out about this?
Eric H
Well-known member
I don't even remember asking this question a year and a half ago. I also didn't take a hard look at boilers at the the show. I am planning on calling the gas co to see about getting a system efficiency test done and see what kind of programs they have for replacement systems.
Bubbles Galore
Active member
That is definitely the path that I am taking (tankless).
I got my utility bill of $3100 a couple of days ago and the shock finally wore off enough for me to figure out how to combat this.
I got my utility bill of $3100 a couple of days ago and the shock finally wore off enough for me to figure out how to combat this.
soapy
Senior Member
I have been researching my locations for the past couple of months and it looks like it costs me on average $300 per bay per month for a SS bay to keep them from freezing. I have 2 locations with raypaks, 1 with high effeciency 95% hydro pulse boilers and 1 using Munchkin +95% boilers. The High eff boilers are only slightly lower in operating cost. The average temperature has been 17 degrees dring this time.
P
Patrick H. Crowe
Guest
It's been quite a few years since I bought my last Raypack boiler but here's what I remember. I'd call it tankless but you tell me.
I was told by an engineering firm (which sold boilers) that it was not safe to put cold fluid directly inot the boiler. That's either returning anti freeze from floor hear or tap water (though warmer) for washing. I was working on floor heat. Apparently cold AF would damage the boiler.
In earlier systems there was a return tank and the cold AF went into it at the bottom, the hot was drawn off the top. Thus the AF was warmed somewhat before returning to the boiler and this prolonged boiler life.
On the new one the cold AF had a small amount of the hot AF mixed into it and then went to the boiler. It mixed in the line not a tank. The aMOUNT WAS VERY CAREFULLY METERED.
I remember the controls were not cheap and there was extra plumbing. I spent several hours on return trips to the engineering firm and twice the engineer who sold me the boiler came to the wash to examine the installatioin because it was his first.
In short it is not necessary to have a tank but I'd be careful to buy the boiler from a firm which knows exactly how to do it. I suspect that by now there are many such sippliers.
Patrick H. Crowe
I was told by an engineering firm (which sold boilers) that it was not safe to put cold fluid directly inot the boiler. That's either returning anti freeze from floor hear or tap water (though warmer) for washing. I was working on floor heat. Apparently cold AF would damage the boiler.
In earlier systems there was a return tank and the cold AF went into it at the bottom, the hot was drawn off the top. Thus the AF was warmed somewhat before returning to the boiler and this prolonged boiler life.
On the new one the cold AF had a small amount of the hot AF mixed into it and then went to the boiler. It mixed in the line not a tank. The aMOUNT WAS VERY CAREFULLY METERED.
I remember the controls were not cheap and there was extra plumbing. I spent several hours on return trips to the engineering firm and twice the engineer who sold me the boiler came to the wash to examine the installatioin because it was his first.
In short it is not necessary to have a tank but I'd be careful to buy the boiler from a firm which knows exactly how to do it. I suspect that by now there are many such sippliers.
Patrick H. Crowe
P
Patrick H. Crowe
Guest
Bill:
I think there is a difference between tankless water heaters and floor heat boilers. I had tankless water heaters at one wash but never for floor heat. These were units which took in tap water, at it's coldest about 45 degrees, then instantly heated it and used it for the wash cycle. These units were specifically designed to heat water "on demand" and they have been in common use in many countries, for years. I was told many mobil homes used them in the USA.
With a floor heat boiler the AF goes out "hot" and comes back "cold". It could well be coming back at ten degrees. The notion was that if fluid that cold went directly to the boiler, damage (shortenened life) would be the result. Thus it went into a storage tank, mixed with some much warmer AF and then to the boiler.
On the most recent one I did the newer fancy controls "injected" a controled amount of the hot AF into the cold return line before it went back into the boiler. Thus no tank was needed and the "shock" of extremely cold fluid into the boiler was avoided.
Did you use your tankles heaters for floor heat?
Patrick H. Crowe
I think there is a difference between tankless water heaters and floor heat boilers. I had tankless water heaters at one wash but never for floor heat. These were units which took in tap water, at it's coldest about 45 degrees, then instantly heated it and used it for the wash cycle. These units were specifically designed to heat water "on demand" and they have been in common use in many countries, for years. I was told many mobil homes used them in the USA.
With a floor heat boiler the AF goes out "hot" and comes back "cold". It could well be coming back at ten degrees. The notion was that if fluid that cold went directly to the boiler, damage (shortenened life) would be the result. Thus it went into a storage tank, mixed with some much warmer AF and then to the boiler.
On the most recent one I did the newer fancy controls "injected" a controled amount of the hot AF into the cold return line before it went back into the boiler. Thus no tank was needed and the "shock" of extremely cold fluid into the boiler was avoided.
Did you use your tankles heaters for floor heat?
Patrick H. Crowe
Bubbles Galore
Active member
I'm excited to think of how much money I would save, and how much space I could open up in my equipment room. This definitely looks like the way to go.
If anyone has gotten the new kleen-scene, there's an article in there about the takagi tankless systems.
If anyone has gotten the new kleen-scene, there's an article in there about the takagi tankless systems.
Mr. Pitzer,
Can you elaborate on the floor heat system that you had at your car wash. What brand on demand heaters did you use? How many heaters did you have on line? How many bays did you have on the system? What was the temperature of the coolant going out to the slab?
Can you elaborate on the floor heat system that you had at your car wash. What brand on demand heaters did you use? How many heaters did you have on line? How many bays did you have on the system? What was the temperature of the coolant going out to the slab?
MEP001
Well-known member
"Tankless" doesn't necessarily beget lower operating costs. If you remove a boiler that's 78% efficient and replace it with a lower BTU tankless heater that's also 78% efficient, all you've really done is lower your capacity. Heat loss of stored water is the main reason to switch to on-demand, and there are a few units (both boilers and instant heaters) that are 98% efficient. That would be the route that would be more likely to save energy.Bubbles Galore said:
Thank God I don?t have floor heat or a boiler. I?ve got on demand ?Junker? that?s pronounced ?Yonker? water heaters. They are made by Bosch now. They are 26 years old and are still working, a little tired but they still work, one for each bay. My gas bills are almost nothing, $50-60 a month average. The only cycle that is heated is the High Pressure soap. When I watch the customers they have the High pressure soap cycle on for a very short time, barely long enough to get the hot water from the equipment room to the gun. The competition down the road didn?t have hot water for over 5 years. When I asked him about it he said no one ever complained about it. He final got it fixed and it didn?t make any difference at all in his business.
Bubbles Galore
Active member
Mep: I know at this point, any upgrade I do will be better than the 20 year old Raypaks I have. Whatever I do decide to go to will be a very high efficiency. In the interim, I am going to install an intermatic timer on my production boiler so that I don't have the 'heat loss' that you mentioned. It gets old coming up to the wash every morning and seeing my boiler running when I have eight dry bays.
pitzerwm
Active member
The heaters were Junkers, 2 of them, there was a 40 gal tank, open, a Teal pump, when temp activated, it pumped the water through the heaters, I added a valve, so if the temp wasn't too cold only one heater kicked in, measured the return line, when it was 70, I by passed the heaters and just circulated the water. I also put a clock on it so at night it only kicked in once in awhile.
