FYI - Seperating Wax and Foot Valves

[2Biz]

This is an FYI Thread since there have been so many threads on bad foot valves. I have only experienced this problem on my wax so I thought I'd offer what the cause was and the solution to fix the issue.

I recently replaced several foot valves on my wax that would only hold a few days before failing. So I called my distributor, I use Warsaw Chemicals, and the rep asked me if the wax was seperating or if it had frozen..I didn't even know to look for it, but it was. It was "clear" down about 2" and the rest was a darker green. He said it must of got cold even though I keep the ER @ 60°. He said when the wax seperates, it gets thick and gritty and won't let the foot valve hold. He also said I should keep it up off the floor by putting an empty 5 gallon pail under the one I'm using to keep it out of any draft that may be down low from opening and closing the ER door.

So after switching the pail out with a new one and getting it up off the floor, I haven't had a failed foot valve since. I know this has been brought up repeatedly, but have never read what the cause was or a remedy to keep it from happening...

 

[rph9168]

Most quality chemicals should not separate easily. If one does freeze it is important not to try to thaw it out quickly. It should be allowed to thaw out at room temperature.

Polishes and sealants are most susceptible to separation but I have seen many survive when they have frozen solid. To be honest I don't buy the gritty excuse. While it should be thicker gritty means it was not fully in solution. The exception might be some detergents that require more powders in their formulation but there shouldn't be much powdered chemicals in a sealant or polish.

I have always recommended keeping your chemicals off direct contact with the concrete floor. Even if they don't freeze almost all chemicals will tend to thicken when cooled which can seriously affect dilution ratios and wash performance.

 

[mac]

2Biz, good thought, but can you help me understand why I had that issue down here in sunny, warn Florida? And I was using a quality chemical. I still think it's the cheap Chinese manufacturing methods.

 

[ICEMAN1]

i think most soaps that seperate were more than likely frozen during transport, or when they were stored at your distributors warehouse. It is more common than you would think.

 

[rph9168]

Iceman is right. Sometimes chemicals freeze during transport. As I said before, while most of the time they will go back into solution sometimes they do not. A reputable chemical company would either pay the expense of having a heated trailer or delay shipment in extremely cold weather. While it is highly unlikely, heating the solution to 130-140 degrees or more will also break down most solutions or seriously affect their performance.

 

[2Biz]

2Biz, good thought, but can you help me understand why I had that issue down here in sunny, warn Florida? And I was using a quality chemical. I still think it's the cheap Chinese manufacturing methods.

Another thing I failed to mention. I refill my containers (5 gallon pails) when they are about half empty. My didstributor also told me not to refill them untill they are almost completely empty...This for me is hard to do even though I check the wash daily. He said eventually the mixture gets thicker because of evaporation. This can take some time to happen, but will get thicker with each fillup. When the mixture gets thicker, the foot valves will not hold. I even have an oring to seal between the hose and cap on each pail and only crack the little bleader cap for air.

All I know is, after taking his advice, when I replaced the remaining wax with a new 5 gallon pail, the foot valve has held ever since. No air gets in the hose...I just recently had this issue....Took 2 years to get to this point. My wax was getting thicker, then it seperated. But I wouldn't rule out frozen or very cold product sitting in a warehouse as mentioned above.

 

[ICEMAN1]

if you are having trouble with evaporation, stuff a rag in the opening of the five gallon bucket. I do this with my winter foam brush soap, because of the menthanol. I would think that soaps would evaporate very slowly since they are in a enclosed environment. If you have a bucket that is clear on the top it was definately frozen at one time. The only time I have trouble with soap getting thick is triple foam. I use an ultra concentrate that is thick to begin with. When it gets to bad I just let the buckets run down and then wash them out. I also put a little clorox in my holding tanks on slow days to help keep things clean. I can't remember last time I replaced a foot valve. I use a pvc check with bowl screen on bottom.

 

[2Biz]

Something I just learned today. A few days ago I changed over my winter tri-foam to summer mix and today I noticed the yellow soap bucket started overflowing. Mix was syphoning back into the bucket ever so slightly and I didn't notice it till it was overflowing.

I installed the tri-foam before I knew anything about the CW. The hydrominders came with discharge tubes that didn't have syphon breaks. I installed them this way and they have been fine now for 2+ years. So last night I added syphon breaks in the discharge tubes and cleaned/checked the foot valve. I couldn't blow throught it...Or so I thought. Over night soap had leaked all the way back into the pale.

After checking the foot valve, I still couldn't blow through it...But if I put it on the end of a piece of new vinyl hose and submerged it in water, you could see it leaking ever so slightly when blowing on the hose. So I installed a new "Blue" FV and did the same test. This time air came out from between the hose and FV barb...I compared the 2 valves and the 1/2" barb section of the FV's were .010" different. The original was .520" and the new one was .510" ......010" difference. Being a machinist for 25 yrs, I check everything with calipers...So basically when using .500 ID hose, you only have .010" compression on the FV barb. AND if you try to use the old hose it's even worse. Replacing the hose with new .500" x .750" (.125" wall) tubing solved the problem. KR sells .500" x .687" vinyl hose and it doesn't hold near as well as the .125" wall tubing. Something else to consider. Use the .125" wall for better leak free holding power.

For everybody posting that they are having trouble with the Blue FV's, try testing them the way I did to see where their leaking. You might discover its not the diaphram in the FV at all. It may be leaking between the hose and barb.

 

[Ric]

Something I just learned today. A few days ago I changed over my winter tri-foam to summer mix and today I noticed the yellow soap bucket started overflowing. Mix was syphoning back into the bucket ever so slightly and I didn't notice it till it was overflowing.

I installed the tri-foam before I knew anything about the CW. The hydrominders came with discharge tubes that didn't have syphon breaks. I installed them this way and they have been fine now for 2+ years. So last night I added syphon breaks in the discharge tubes and cleaned/checked the foot valve. I couldn't blow throught it...Or so I thought. Over night soap had leaked all the way back into the pale.

After checking the foot valve, I still couldn't blow through it...But if I put it on the end of a piece of new vinyl hose and submerged it in water, you could see it leaking ever so slightly when blowing on the hose. So I installed a new "Blue" FV and did the same test. This time air came out from between the hose and FV barb...I compared the 2 valves and the 1/2" barb section of the FV's were .010" different. The original was .520" and the new one was .510" ......010" difference. Being a machinist for 25 yrs, I check everything with calipers...So basically when using .500 ID hose, you only have .010" compression on the FV barb. AND if you try to use the old hose it's even worse. Replacing the hose with new .500" x .750" (.125" wall) tubing solved the problem. KR sells .500" x .687" vinyl hose and it doesn't hold near as well as the .125" wall tubing. Something else to consider. Use the .125" wall for better leak free holding power.

For everybody posting that they are having trouble with the Blue FV's, try testing them the way I did to see where their leaking. You might discover its not the diaphram in the FV at all. It may be leaking between the hose and barb.

Put a clamp around the hose. A plastic zip tie works.

 

[MEP001]

I've also had to put zip ties around the foot valve when the hose starts to harden up.

 

[2Biz]

I have spring clamps on all the hoses, but even it didn't seal the hose to barb 100%. It didn't stop leaking till I put on new hose. I had replaced that hose about 3 months ago. It hadn't hardened yet, but since the last FV was .010" bigger, the new FV wouldn't seal. It was easier to just replace the hose with new. I'll try a zip tie next time. Maybe it will work better than a spring clamp.

I find it interesting that the manufacture would skimp just .010" off the diameter of the barb to save a half cent or less....

 

[Washmee]

I find it interesting that the manufacture would skimp just .010" off the diameter of the barb to save a half cent or less....

The "Manufacturer" probably off shored the production to China. The supplier probably skimped on the .010 and didn't tell.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I aLways use a screw type clamp. This was more to prevent losing the FV in the barrel and having to get it out.

 

[I.B. Washincars]

I aLways use a screw type clamp.

I do too. Using a zip tie sounds like something you would do when you are broken down on a busy holiday and that's all you have to get yourself going. I've had the hose to valve leak several times over the years and have been using a screw clamp on them for ages. Every eq. room should have them on hand so why use something less.

 

[2Biz]

Very good point.....Thanks....