What's new

Titrating

Zal

Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2019
Messages
51
Reaction score
15
Points
8
Location
Illinois
Question to all chemical Rep guys:
Is titrating brand specific? I want to know if one titration kit will do all brands? Please explain your thoughts.
Thanks,
Zal
 

MEP001

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 30, 2007
Messages
12,700
Reaction score
897
Points
113
Location
Texas
Depends on your goal, but as a rule the manufacturer has a parameter for titrating that you want to meet.
 

Greg Pack

Wash Weenie
Joined
Sep 3, 2007
Messages
2,893
Reaction score
347
Points
83
Location
Hoover, Alabama
Pretty much yes. I might can take your solution that titrates with your kit at 67 drops, and titrate with my kit and get 19 drops as a result. The type of indicator and the strength of the titrant cause different results.

However, I've found what level of alkalinity it takes to clean at. I can test any high ph presoak with my titration kit and get a general idea of how well it's likely to work.
 

Zal

Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2019
Messages
51
Reaction score
15
Points
8
Location
Illinois
From one brand to another. 11 drops and 18 drops with no other changes. My thoughts-11 drop soap can’t be as concentrated if it takes a larger tip to clean as well. Titrate seems to back it up. If we continually change titration kit brands we do not have a stable comparison? Just my take thats why I seek other input.
 
Last edited:

sparkey

Active member
Joined
May 22, 2010
Messages
741
Reaction score
49
Points
28
Location
Ohio
I use warsaw soaps and I find that even their titration kits can very by 5 drops or more from brand new kits. I called them and ask why I was seeing the wide variance on brand new kits and they said the bottle tip may be a little bigger on one bottle to the next. It kind of made me think the titration was just a wide ballpark figure or poor quality control. Not sure which.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Zal

GoBuckeyes

Self-Serve and Automatics
Joined
Aug 30, 2007
Messages
629
Reaction score
30
Points
28
Location
Cleveland
Thats why I pretty much stopped titrating. The more accurate I tried to be, the more frustrated I got. If I got a different # of drops then what I was looking for I would use another bottle of titrate only to find it varied as well. I'd grab another kit from a different location and find yet a third result. You're best off to use the same kit as a reference point only. If its 'different' then normal start looking for problems.
 

Greg Pack

Wash Weenie
Joined
Sep 3, 2007
Messages
2,893
Reaction score
347
Points
83
Location
Hoover, Alabama
From one brand to another. 11 drops and 18 drops with no other changes. My thoughts-11 drop soap can’t be as concentrated if it takes a larger tip to clean as well. Titrate seems to back it up. If we continually change titration kit brands we do not have a stable comparison? Just my take thats why I seek other input.

It means it is not as alkaline. IIRC, you have got three main products in a presoak- surfactants, solvents, and your builder, (alkaline or acid). There can be other products such as water softeners, etc. Qual chem for example sells one base product that has surfactants and solvents (qclean) and then you tee in the builder and strengthen the product to the level you desire. You can use qclean for hi or low ph presoak, tire cleaner, wheel cleaner, nuetral foamer, etc. But yes, I've found alkalinty plays the major role in cleaning, but I think its possible the other two (different surfactants and solvents) can contribute based on regional differences.

My goal would be to get satisfactory cleaning at as low a level of alkalinty as possible.

Thats why I pretty much stopped titrating. The more accurate I tried to be, the more frustrated I got. If got a different # of drops then what I was looking for I would use another bottle of titrate only to find it varied as well. I'd grab another kit from a different location and find yet a third result. You're best off to use the same kit as a reference point only. If its 'different' then normal start looking for problems.

Drop size can be a problem, you have to hold the dropper the same way every time but I can use titration and get pretty close. Blendco kits have a dropper that is graduated at ten drop marks and they work pretty well. Titrating is way more accurate than ph testing.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Zal

mac

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 3, 2007
Messages
2,957
Reaction score
346
Points
83
Well Zell you opened a can of worms. As you see from the responses there just doesn’t seem to be one standard for this. I’ve dealt with many, many chem reps and most simply don’t know what they are doing. Trial and error is still a good way to test this. I once had a Blendco factory rep come to show my three techs how to titrate and set up. He spent two full days of “training” at one of my customers wash. When he left I asked the techs what he learned. He said nothing. The guy just told wash stories. The best part was when I went to that site a fee weeks later. The factory rep had sold the owner direct, cheaper than what I charged.
 

John J Spokas

Member
Joined
Jul 9, 2010
Messages
61
Reaction score
25
Points
18
Location
Lisle, IL
Well Zell you opened a can of worms. As you see from the responses there just doesn’t seem to be one standard for this. I’ve dealt with many, many chem reps and most simply don’t know what they are doing. Trial and error is still a good way to test this. I once had a Blendco factory rep come to show my three techs how to titrate and set up. He spent two full days of “training” at one of my customers wash. When he left I asked the techs what he learned. He said nothing. The guy just told wash stories. The best part was when I went to that site a fee weeks later. The factory rep had sold the owner direct, cheaper than what I charged.
Didja call the Blendco sales department after that? Or is that an accepted SOP for Blendco.
 

Zal

Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2019
Messages
51
Reaction score
15
Points
8
Location
Illinois
Thanks guys, Funny I don’t see any Chemical Company Guys chiming in? Makes you wonder if anything remotely scientific exists in soap and chemical manufacturing... lets see what comes next
 

tdlconceptsllc

Active member
Joined
Jul 30, 2013
Messages
808
Reaction score
114
Points
43
Location
Central NC
I focus alot on volumetrics how many mills per car I see few people do this. It will tell you how much viscosity the chemical has and if it's been watered down from distributor it will show brand to brand
 

JGinther

Zip-tie engineer
Joined
May 31, 2008
Messages
663
Reaction score
101
Points
43
Location
Loveland, CO
A titration kit is for using a known molarity product of opposite pH to measure how much alkalinity or acidity there is in the sample. For example, if you titrate the stock solution (undiluted) at 500 drops, then test a final dilution of 50 drops, you know you diluted at 10%. Using the same titration on another product would tell you how much acid or alkaline builder there is in the product, but it doesn't tell you anything about solvents, surfactants, chelants, etc are in the mix. Differences from one titration kit to another does not matter, they all work the same way, but they are not calibrated in any standard to one another. You can tell by using the same titration kit on product a vs product b which has more builder or more acid, but that's about it.
 

mac

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 3, 2007
Messages
2,957
Reaction score
346
Points
83
O
Didja call the Blendco sales department after that? Or is that an accepted SOP for Blendco.
Oh yes did I talk to them. I had a written contract with them which said how sales would be conducted. It was a conference call with the top people at Blendco. I could almost feel them squirming in their seats. They said they would look in to it. They possess what we former military call weapons grade stupidity.
 
Top