Can Coin-Ops Clean w/o Foam Brushes?

[Pro-Techt]

I'm wondering if it is humanly possible for a dirty car (one with road oils, not just dust) to get 100% clean in a Self-Serve wash if you DON'T use the foam brush step? Some people claim that allowing the pre-soak to have time to dwell will allow it to loosen the dirt and cause the dirt to swell, making it softer. The softer, looser dirt is now more vulnerable to attack with the HP Soap. The HP soap alone won't remove all road film, since its not as strong a detergent as the pre-soak is. Applying lots of pre-soak and letting it dwell is really the secret of touchless cleaning at a good Self Serve.

In all my years of washing @ the DIY washes I never been able to get a dirty car totally clean unless you hand wash it or use the brush. Every time I've tried there's always been a fair amount of dirt transfer on my drying towel. I'd rather spend a few more minutes going over the vehicle with some sort of friction when it's wet with soap instead of drying/wiping in dirt at the end.

 

[rph9168]

If you do not use the foam brush you are essentially trying to do a touch free wash. Very few self serves even offer touch free chemicals so it would be almost impossible to wash a vehicle touch free and remove all the soils - especially road film.

I once heard a car wash chemist describe road film as "what's left after a touch free wash".

 

[Pro-Techt]

I see what you're saying, but if you let the pre-soak the vehicle with low pressure (more concentrated ratio) (not pulling wand trigger), will that substitute the need for friction? I personally don't think so, but the person I've argueing this technique with is insisting that he is able to totally clean a dirty car this way.

 

[mac]

ProTecht, this should be easy to prove. Get your car real dirty, let it bake on for a few days, and challange him to clean it his way. Now comes the good part, bet him $50. It'll be easy money.

 

[DavidM]

There are way too many variables involved for a definitive yes or no answer. The quality and concentration of the soap, the type of dirt, how long it has been on, etc.

I know that in our self serves, if I wash my vehicle once a week or so, I never need the foaming brush and my car is clean. It is kept outside but it is also waxed at least once a year and I typically use CCP or Rain-X type products as well.

If the claim above is that foam brush is never necessary with a good presoak that is absolutely false.

David

 

[MEP001]

The only time you can get a car completely clean with only presoak and high-pressure is if it was clean to begin with. I use the same presoak in the self serve bays as in the touch-free auto, and while you can get a car clean enough without friction that it looks clean, it's not ever completely clean. The proof is with the customers that don't use the foam brush who then pull out a chamois to dry, and have to rinse and wring it several times because the water comes out gray. I'll dry with a white detail towel after washing thoroughly with the foam brush and the towel will stay white.

 

[Waxman]

Don't diss friction!

Part of the benefit of a nice SS wash is utilizing friction through use of a nice foamy brush setup.

Sometimes friction is your friend! Right, guys?

 

[Pro-Techt]

I use the same presoak in the self serve bays as in the touch-free auto, and while you can get a car clean enough without friction that it looks clean, it's not ever completely clean.

I agree, but how are touch-free systems able to so-call clean "better" than the method I was instructed on (low-pressure pre-soak)? Especially when tunnel dwell times are much shorter? Are touch-free systems just as challenged when it comes to removing road oils and heavy dirt? Can anyone get a vehicle 100% totally clean without friction???? I'd assume you'd need to crank up the soap concentration, water pressure and water temp to unsafe levels to attempt it right?

 

[MEP001]

Can anyone get a vehicle 100% totally clean without friction????

Previously asked and answered: No.

 

[Pro-Techt]

So are all the touchless washes tricking their customers into believing they're cleaning cars then? What's the point in trying to offer something that's totally bogus?

 

[MEP001]

Has anyone operating a touchless auto promised a 100% totally clean car? Without that promise, how is it totally bogus to not provide it? If I'm bilking many tens of thousands of customers out of their money, why has no one said anything? Why have NONE of them complained that their car isn't clean to their satisfaction, aside from the occasional missed spot of hard, baked on bird poop that I wipe off for them?

 

[JustClean]

So are all the touchless washes tricking their customers into believing they're cleaning cars then? What's the point in trying to offer something that's totally bogus?

What is the definition of CLEAN? It varies greatly from person to person. Both, touchless and brush machines have their market place. There are many types of vehicles that just can't be cleaned with a brush machine but their owners are more than happy with the result of a touchless because they don't need to do it themselves. Others don't like brushes at all and think a HP touchless can't damage their car. Others prefer the brush machines, especially if fitted with the soft foam material as it is gentle and reduces the risk of damage, etc.
I think we shouldn't go into the discussion of what is better or not. At the end it is up to the customer to decide.

 

[Earl Weiss]

So are all the touchless washes tricking their customers into believing they're cleaning cars then? What's the point in trying to offer something that's totally bogus?

Amen to prior post about definition of clean. Then of course Tunnel Touchless often ends with a towel dry that gets the rest of the dirt off.

 

[Waxman]

If you offer a carwash and a customer comes back repeatedly it's obviously not bogus.

It is obviously worth the money to them.

They are the judge whose opinion matters; the customer.

 

[pitzerwm]

Touchfree provides a service that is totally acceptable for many. Does it work for you?, Maybe not. Many people don't want anything/brushes touching their car. When did you find anything that was 100%?

 

[Pro-Techt]

Again, back to the false understanding of what is acceptable and what is understood in respect to a clean car. I consider a ?CLEAN? car one that doesn?t have a film of dirt left behind after being washed. Just because it?s shiny and reflective, doesn?t mean it?s clean. Regardless of the method, a car wash should be able to clean a ?cleanable? car. Not too much to ask really. I think this perception is many car wash operators worst enemy.

If you asked your customers if they knew that their cars weren?t coming out as clean as possible, would they be satisfied then? The problem is people don?t know what a clean car is. It?s just a false understanding that their car is clean just because there are other customers using the specific wash. Kinda like the blind leading the blind at times.

I don?t know too many businesses that offer any kind of promise, but don?t you think customers expect their vehicles to be cleaned? Especially when they shell out $8-10 (or a lot more)? Maybe not 100%,but pretty close. Just because your clients don?t complain doesn?t mean their happy. Satisfied possibly, but I always try going beyond customer?s expectations in the car care arena. Having a car wash and not turning out a clean car is a poor excuse for my business model IMHO. How many people return to car washes that don?t clean cars?

Amen to prior post about definition of clean. Then of course Tunnel Touchless often ends with a towel dry that gets the rest of the dirt off.

Not sure which one is better ? a dirty unscratched car or a clean scratched one?

 

[I.B. Washincars]

Good grief PT, what the hell is your mission here! I don't know what kind of car wash you have and don't really care, but I bet you don't turn out a perfectly clean car either. I don't care how good the job is, there is always going to someone anal enough (most likely someone like you) that will find something wrong with it. Everyone's perception of clean is going to be different and will never be settled here.

 

[Pro-Techt]

Sorry for ruffling feathers and going off on a tangent. Just trying to discuss if a car can actually come clean at a self-serve if you don't use the foam brush.

 

[MEP001]

Sorry for ruffling feathers and going off on a tangent. Just trying to discuss if a car can actually come clean at a self-serve if you don't use the foam brush.

You've gone way beyond that. You've asked twice about how clean a car can be made without friction, and rather than discuss it you've accused the majority of this forum's members of bilking their customers.

Again, back to the false understanding of what is acceptable and what is understood in respect to a clean car.

The false understanding is yours. Again, back to the customers, do you think they can't tell that their car doesn't get "100% totally clean" in a touchless auto? I ask again, why are they coming back if they aren't satisfied? Would you keep ordering a meal if it tasted bad or it was expensive and too small a meal to satisfy you?

If you asked your customers if they knew that their cars weren’t coming out as clean as possible, would they be satisfied then?

What is "as clean as possible?" Is that your "100% totally clean" again? The cars leaving our Vector are as clean as possible for the machine's ability. The customers are coming back. Why would I throw rocks at a hornet's nest by stopping them at the exit and asking them if they knew their cars weren't coming "100% totally clean?"

...but if you let the pre-soak the vehicle with low pressure (more concentrated ratio) (not pulling wand trigger), will that substitute the need for friction? I personally don't think so, but the person I've argueing this technique with is insisting that he is able to totally clean a dirty car this way.

That person is probably not getting a "100% totally clean car" without friction. He's cleaning it to his satisfaction.

 

[washnvac]

I have three black vehicles. When I use the s/s I never use the brush. A triple pass of pre-soak, let it sit 60 seconds or so, then hp soap with hot water, hp rinse, spot-free, then go. A vehicle on a regular cleaning schedule can come clean with no brush. Ofcourse, I am using a high ph touchless product for my s/s pre-soak; so that helps.