termn8tr
Member
When applying a 2 step high ph presoak only, the first step ph reading is 12-13 on the test strip, should the second step be the same or lower and what should the reading be??? Can too much high ph result in poor cleaning??
2 step high ph presoak
- Thread starter termn8tr
- Start date
madscientist
Member
Just be clear, you're doing two passes of presoak and both of them are high ph. Is this correct?
termn8tr
Member
Yes, that is correct
Bob Koo
Member
Yes, it can, especially, is you cannot get the chemical rinsed off of the vehicle surface.
washtubman
Member
I've been told that anything over 12 will also strip wax. I use two passes at about 11-11.5.
termn8tr
Member
Thank you, I will lower the ph level down to 11 on both steps and see what happens.
Greg Pack
Wash Weenie
It seemed when we played with that the product that hit the paint first seemed to be most important. So we always used a very strong first pass of high, followed by a much weaker "show pass". For example, lets say you had two mls of presoak to clean with. My tests indicate you would be better off putting 1.25 mls on pass one, then .75 ml on pass two instead of equal amounts on both pases. To demonstrate in hydrominder terms what I mean, instead of equal passes with a brown tip, pass one may have an orange tip, but pass two might use use the same product with a purple tip. To tweak I would try to continue to reduce the strength of pass two until performance drops or the foam production drops to unacceptable levels. Then, if needed, strengthen back up until cleaning returns. Then try the same process with pass one.
Back in 2003 I started boosting alkaline presoaks with caustic. It is essentially the same thing several manufacturers are doing through dual tip eductors with their custom blends. It is a cheap way to increase cleaning performance without adding the foam (which must be rinsed off). I would not recommend it for the causal operator, but by increasing the level of alkalinity you can make darn near any presoak on the market clean better. (I will now await the incoming flak from finger-wagging chemical reps.)
I will also say that clearcoat paint finishes are much tougher than most realize. I use a solution strength that would make most people pass out if they inhaled it, in the high 12's. Most one drum presoaks could be applied at twice the recommended strength or even stronger, and still not hurt the finish. Even the premium clearcoat products (rainx, etc)will survive that bath a couple of times.
Titration is a much more accurate way than ph to determine chemical strength. You may have to develop your own numbers to work by, but if you are planning to use the product over the long term, it is worth it the trouble.
Back in 2003 I started boosting alkaline presoaks with caustic. It is essentially the same thing several manufacturers are doing through dual tip eductors with their custom blends. It is a cheap way to increase cleaning performance without adding the foam (which must be rinsed off). I would not recommend it for the causal operator, but by increasing the level of alkalinity you can make darn near any presoak on the market clean better. (I will now await the incoming flak from finger-wagging chemical reps.)
I will also say that clearcoat paint finishes are much tougher than most realize. I use a solution strength that would make most people pass out if they inhaled it, in the high 12's. Most one drum presoaks could be applied at twice the recommended strength or even stronger, and still not hurt the finish. Even the premium clearcoat products (rainx, etc)will survive that bath a couple of times.
Titration is a much more accurate way than ph to determine chemical strength. You may have to develop your own numbers to work by, but if you are planning to use the product over the long term, it is worth it the trouble.
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There are other, safer ways to boost alkalinity or cleaning ability than to inject caustic. As you note, titration is a far better method of calculating the strength of a product. Most of the better formulated high pH presoaks are buffered. By buffering a product the pH is lowered to a safer level but the strength or cleaning power of the product is not reduced. Many bathtub blenders will use unbuffered caustic formulations as a way to manufacture an inexpensive high pH product. Theses products may do an effective job cleaning but it is not without risk.
The danger of using unbufferedcaustic is the very real possibility of flashing the plastic trim found on many vehicles. When this shiny, chrome looking trim is flashed it develops a rainbow effect look to it which is permanent. It also have the potential of flashing any exposed shiny aluminum or other metals. When this occurs the metal takes on a chalky appearance. This also may effect the appearance of the exposed metal of your equipment and cause rubber O rings in non viton pumps and polyflo tubing to harden and crack or leak.
In reality, unbuffered caustic has the capability of damaging a finish more than almost all acids when used improperly. It will strip wax and has the capability to damage an older clear coated finish or a single stage paint. It can also cause a nasty skin burn or blind someone if it comes into contact in its raw form.
The danger of using unbufferedcaustic is the very real possibility of flashing the plastic trim found on many vehicles. When this shiny, chrome looking trim is flashed it develops a rainbow effect look to it which is permanent. It also have the potential of flashing any exposed shiny aluminum or other metals. When this occurs the metal takes on a chalky appearance. This also may effect the appearance of the exposed metal of your equipment and cause rubber O rings in non viton pumps and polyflo tubing to harden and crack or leak.
In reality, unbuffered caustic has the capability of damaging a finish more than almost all acids when used improperly. It will strip wax and has the capability to damage an older clear coated finish or a single stage paint. It can also cause a nasty skin burn or blind someone if it comes into contact in its raw form.
Greg Pack
Wash Weenie
Well, I did say it was NOT for the casual operator. 
However, I have washed a few hundred K cars with this solution and to date have had no paid claims. I have however had a handful of issues related to this over the years. If I allow the mixture to get too strong ( about 30% stronger than I normally run it) it will flash black anodized trim on a few vehicles. This includes some C class MBs, dodge neons, and a Volvo SUV. Most other vehicles seem immune to it. Some of these mfgs acknowledge the problem and their TSBs recommend Cleanerwax as the solution for the discoloration. I have a 2001 F250 that has been washed probably 1000 times with this solution. While troubleshooting IBAs I have washed and rewashed, and let the solution dry on the vehicle without getting rinsed, I still get compliments on the finish of that truck. The one time I paid to have a car quarter panel buffed was a guy driving a "restored" 76 ford truck. He had one quarter panel that had been repainted, and it turned it pink. The irony of this was this incident happened when I was using un-boosted presoak. I acknowledge the hazard is there, but very manageable for me. Once customers get used to a level of cleaning performance, it is hard to back off. I don't advocate this solution to everyone, as a matter of fact I wish I could find a solution that is as effective at much lower levels of alkalinity. But if operators can't find a standard product that cleans well there are options.
And yes, I made a trip to the optometrist last year when I got a drop of that stuff in my eye. I am a little more careful these days.
This is a touch free, not a tunnel. I don't know if that has an effect but it seems more tunnel operators talk about damaging finishes and wheels than touch free operators. And I'm in the south, where high humidity might prevent flash drying-just a thought
However, I have washed a few hundred K cars with this solution and to date have had no paid claims. I have however had a handful of issues related to this over the years. If I allow the mixture to get too strong ( about 30% stronger than I normally run it) it will flash black anodized trim on a few vehicles. This includes some C class MBs, dodge neons, and a Volvo SUV. Most other vehicles seem immune to it. Some of these mfgs acknowledge the problem and their TSBs recommend Cleanerwax as the solution for the discoloration. I have a 2001 F250 that has been washed probably 1000 times with this solution. While troubleshooting IBAs I have washed and rewashed, and let the solution dry on the vehicle without getting rinsed, I still get compliments on the finish of that truck. The one time I paid to have a car quarter panel buffed was a guy driving a "restored" 76 ford truck. He had one quarter panel that had been repainted, and it turned it pink. The irony of this was this incident happened when I was using un-boosted presoak. I acknowledge the hazard is there, but very manageable for me. Once customers get used to a level of cleaning performance, it is hard to back off. I don't advocate this solution to everyone, as a matter of fact I wish I could find a solution that is as effective at much lower levels of alkalinity. But if operators can't find a standard product that cleans well there are options.
And yes, I made a trip to the optometrist last year when I got a drop of that stuff in my eye. I am a little more careful these days.
This is a touch free, not a tunnel. I don't know if that has an effect but it seems more tunnel operators talk about damaging finishes and wheels than touch free operators. And I'm in the south, where high humidity might prevent flash drying-just a thought
